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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Monday 10th June 2019, 10:29   #1676
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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
..... In any case, there is no question than millennials are not as healthy even as the generation before them. .....
I wouldn't be so sure about that. This is the generation that never heard the word "no" when they were growing up. The same generation that made binge drinking and hedonistic excess an art form. This is the same generation where everyone is a winner, where nearly everyone has an internet diagnosed disease as an excuse, as a badge of honour to demand to be treated specially. Where the lifestyle of today is put on the credit card of tomorrow. Not all, but it almost seems taboo to discuss these things.

I'm not surprised at increasing levels of depression when confronted with reality.





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Old Monday 10th June 2019, 16:50   #1677
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I wouldn't be so sure about that. This is the generation that never heard the word "no" when they were growing up. The same generation that made binge drinking and hedonistic excess an art form. This is the same generation where everyone is a winner, where nearly everyone has an internet diagnosed disease as an excuse, as a badge of honour to demand to be treated specially. Where the lifestyle of today is put on the credit card of tomorrow. Not all, but it almost seems taboo to discuss these things.

I'm not surprised at increasing levels of depression when confronted with reality.
Indeed, there’s not the slightest reason to think that the increased incidence of these conditions has anything to do with EMR.
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Old Monday 10th June 2019, 17:36   #1678
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
I wouldn't be so sure about that. This is the generation that never heard the word "no" when they were growing up. The same generation that made binge drinking and hedonistic excess an art form. This is the same generation where everyone is a winner, where nearly everyone has an internet diagnosed disease as an excuse, as a badge of honour to demand to be treated specially. Where the lifestyle of today is put on the credit card of tomorrow. Not all, but it almost seems taboo to discuss these things.
Is it just me, or does this description fit just about any generation as described by the generation before them, horoscope-style?

(Mind you, I'm not a fan of millenials either, but the above seemed kinda broad. I'd say it describes the latter portion of Generation X fairly accurately as well, and every generation after them?)
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Old Monday 10th June 2019, 18:34   #1679
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Is it just me, or does this description fit just about any generation as described by the generation before them, horoscope-style?

(Mind you, I'm not a fan of millenials either, but the above seemed kinda broad. I'd say it describes the latter portion of Generation X fairly accurately as well, and every generation after them?)
While there has always been generational gaps - something very different happened starting with Generation Y. The positive psychology research of the 80's and 90's, powered leadership and business transformations as we headed through the new millenium.

However when the educational elites and bureaucrats tried to apply it they completely and utterly b*st*rdized it. Suddenly every child was a winner and personal responsibility and consequences were thrown out the window. A whole generation grew up never hearing the word "no". I wouldn't be surprised if the era was looked back upon as child abuse.

Of course there is more of a social conscience and consumer activism that has also been born out of that time, so it's not all bad news - it's just that quite a bit of it plays second fiddle to the lattes and smashed avo 'selfie' egocentric instagram set .....

I'm sure anyone with more than a casual interest could dig up reams of research to support the notion. My point was that these factors would be just as valid as anything else - perhaps even moreso.

The inherent labeling and diagnosis of a plethora of 'conditions' also brings more of these into the public consciousness. Whereas a child chucking a tantrum in the 'old days' would have been disciplined or caned ..... now they're off to the doctor's to be diagnosed with ADHD, put on a course of drugs, labeled, and given special treatment.

I know a lot of school teachers, and tales of a child being allowed to 'go wild' - up ending chairs and tables for as long as they want are not uncommon. Even the 'naughty corner' has fallen out of favor. Now the other children are just moved out of the way until the whirlwind subsides ....... brilliant stuff eh?

I'm sure many here on BF would have received a swift kick up the backside, rap over the knuckles, or piece of chalk expertly pinged right between the eyes if they'd tried that on ! ....... not anymore ........




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Old Tuesday 11th June 2019, 01:47   #1680
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
While there has always been generational gaps - something very different happened starting with Generation Y. The positive psychology research of the 80's and 90's, powered leadership and business transformations as we headed through the new millenium.

However when the educational elites and bureaucrats tried to apply it they completely and utterly b*st*rdized it. Suddenly every child was a winner and personal responsibility and consequences were thrown out the window. A whole generation grew up never hearing the word "no". I wouldn't be surprised if the era was looked back upon as child abuse.

Of course there is more of a social conscience and consumer activism that has also been born out of that time, so it's not all bad news - it's just that quite a bit of it plays second fiddle to the lattes and smashed avo 'selfie' egocentric instagram set .....

I'm sure anyone with more than a casual interest could dig up reams of research to support the notion. My point was that these factors would be just as valid as anything else - perhaps even moreso.

The inherent labeling and diagnosis of a plethora of 'conditions' also brings more of these into the public consciousness. Whereas a child chucking a tantrum in the 'old days' would have been disciplined or caned ..... now they're off to the doctor's to be diagnosed with ADHD, put on a course of drugs, labeled, and given special treatment.

I know a lot of school teachers, and tales of a child being allowed to 'go wild' - up ending chairs and tables for as long as they want are not uncommon. Even the 'naughty corner' has fallen out of favor. Now the other children are just moved out of the way until the whirlwind subsides ....... brilliant stuff eh?

I'm sure many here on BF would have received a swift kick up the backside, rap over the knuckles, or piece of chalk expertly pinged right between the eyes if they'd tried that on ! ....... not anymore ........


Chosun
Not sure that the newer generation is much different, except that the youth incentives seem less generous.
An overhang of $1.4 trillion in student debt that often cannot be paid back and which cannot be defeased even in bankruptcy is bad for society imho.
It prevents people from taking on new opportunities and also from ever starting a family.
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Old Tuesday 11th June 2019, 09:30   #1681
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Not sure that the newer generation is much different, except that the youth incentives seem less generous.
An overhang of $1.4 trillion in student debt that often cannot be paid back and which cannot be defeased even in bankruptcy is bad for society imho.
It prevents people from taking on new opportunities and also from ever starting a family.
I won't speak for other countries, but in this country there was a definite step change.

It was distinctly caused by the mangled application of fundamental psychological research (a lot of it originated in the business arena, around motivation, teams, and empowerment) in the educational realm. It seemed to go hand in hand with Political Correctness, and the feminization of everything. I'm not sure if it is related but from then on saw big declines in the numbers of males teaching pre-, and primary school.

There were distinct changes in behaviour with everyone becoming a 'winner'. Discipline, and delayed gratification (maturity) went out the window. The increase of 'ferals' was marked. The amount of rubbish (mostly from fast food outlets) strewn without a shred of guilt all over the sides of roads was disturbing. The sort of thing that would have seen previous generations given a bl**dy good clip in the ear ......

I agree that the younger generation (Y) faced structural and systemic inequalities - education costs, rising housing and living costs. However, they also faced recruiters falling over themselves to employ the newly graduated digital natives. Had they had the work ethic and ability to sacrifice that older generations were forged in they would have had it made. Except, the generational 'softness' tended to live for now ...... on credit. Spoiled by their parent's McMansions, there was delayed maturation, instant gratification, and an almost abandonment of the hard yards done by previous generations.

For some very odd reason, the insecurities of later Boomers /Generation X played out with them (perhaps due to the pervasive culture of youth?) wanting (and suceeding) in becoming the first generation to primarily be first and foremost 'friends' with their children. Boundaries and discipline were the first casualties of parents abdicating parenting.

This Manifested in some rather nasty 'temper tantrums' - urging their bosses to p*** off and step aside - failing to realise that every previous generation also felt stuck and frustrated as they served their corporate time waiting to climb the ladder. It also resulted in the truly macabre wish for their parents to "hurry up and die already" so they could inherit their assets.

This petulant rhetoric has calmed down somewhat with the current Millenial generation, as all generations from the still forced to work Boomers, through X, Y, and now Millenials face the broad scale casualisation of the workforce, growing technological substitution, and high employment insecurity.

Some of this is rooted in our Right-wing leaning Industrialisation laws, the pressures of Globalisation, and the failure of trickle-down economics. The rest of it in a failed progressive push fueled by butchered psychology. Such was the magnitude of the failure that it could even be viewed as 'abuse'.

It is absolutely no wonder to me whatsoever that younger generations running into stark reality checks (such as older generations continuing on in relative good health, such as having to wait after all, such as realising that the only ones who frittered away their housing deposits was them, such as realising that despite ~10 or ~20 years working, they are still at the bottom of the mountain staring at a sheer face, etc) ........ find the whole thing depressing ..........

Before claims are made that this increase in 'mental health disorders' is caused by any single this or that, it would pay to look at the research, and the broad range of pressures and causes.



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Old Tuesday 11th June 2019, 10:32   #1682
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@ Chosun, Etudiant I have to say that youngsters today do seem terribly self-obsessed (I think they are being called "snowflakes"?) and in general don't see they are being encouraged to self-discipline and hard work. HOWEVER, (and this is important) the debt burden is immense, the opportunities for these kids are minimal, they are exploited by such things as the "internship" which actually means working for free and on balance I think they are getting a very raw deal indeed. As for school, middle-class parents always want to blame dyslexia, ADD, etc. for their kid merely being a spoiled brat (mostly because the parents don't pay the kid any attention and they want to foist responsibility elsewhere) but on the other hand these afflictions do actually exist and can happen to children whose parents do not ignore them. Greece is a very child-centered culture where kids are not ignored and yet we are seeing a steep rise in various problems as I mentioned yesterday. Also Greek students do not end up deeply in debt--education is still free, though there are few opportunities to use degrees without going abroad. So if the same health issues are affecting the whole generation regardless of where they live, it kind of narrows things down, doesn't it?
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Old Friday 14th June 2019, 09:46   #1683
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Now this is interesting:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...g-game/590503/

Quoting:
Quote:
Lena Edlund, a Columbia University economist, and Cecilia Machado, of the Getulio Vargas Foundation, lay out the data in a new National Bureau of Economic Research working paper. They estimate that the diffusion of phones could explain 19 to 29 percent of the decline in homicides seen from 1990 to 2000.

“The cellphones changed how drugs were dealt,” Edlund told me. In the ’80s, turf-based drug sales generated violence as gangs attacked and defended territory, and also allowed those who controlled the block to keep profits high.

The cellphone broke the link, the paper claims, between turf and selling drugs. “It’s not that people don’t sell or do drugs anymore,” Edlund explained to me, “but the relationship between that and violence is different.”
Of course it might be that the extended usage of cell phones by drug pushers fried their brains. Maybe the effect was cumulative with the previous punishment inflicted by pagers?
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Old Yesterday, 10:32   #1684
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@ Borjam I never said wireless technology didn't have its uses. But I do maintain it is dangerous to us and the planet on account of the EMR. The Atlantic article has to do with how the usage of cell phones changed the drug-dealing business model, and is not relevant to the discussion.

@ all It is beginning to look as if 5G, and 5G from space, might just not proceed smoothly after all. The Prime Minister of Poland has just signed the 5G Space Appeal, there is a new anti-5G alliance for Europe, many places in both the US and Europe are refusing to have 5G, astronomers are calling for a halt to 5G from space because they won't be able to see anything for all the satellites, and the NOAA and other bodies are saying that all those satellites will seriously interfere with weather prediction, or make accurate weather prediction virtually impossible. All of which is good, though it saddens me that not one of the nature NGOs has raised a voice in protest against 5G and all the satellites, and they should be--at the very least, it is generally accepted that EMR interferes with migration of birds, insects and other species, so blanketing the earth in many frequencies of EMR is sure to play havoc with migratory species of all sorts in addition to all the other biological damage that EMR causes. Why are all the nature NGOs keeping silent when there is increasing evidence that EMR harms humans? Considering that most of the earth's species are far smaller than us, hence more vulnerable, and considering that we know without any doubt that insects especially are vanishing at a rate of knots, one would think that the nature NGOs would be in favor of the precautionary principle. Their united silence on the issue of EMR, 5G, and 5G from space speaks volumes for their true loyalties. From small, truly committed groups of individuals they have all grown into gigantic organizations whose main aim is less saving nature than self-perpetuation. In any case it is odd, given the general outcry of concern about the effects of 5G, that they are saying nothing.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/05/as...ering-the-sky/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...8fb_story.html

http://www.stopsmartmetersbc.com/wp-...ly-01-2019.pdf

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/06...al-to-stop-5g/

https://hechingerreport.org/research...ts-in-schools/
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Old Yesterday, 18:01   #1685
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. . .Why are all the nature NGOs keeping silent when there is increasing evidence that EMR harms humans? Considering that most of the earth's species are far smaller than us, hence more vulnerable, and considering that we know without any doubt that insects especially are vanishing at a rate of knots, one would think that the nature NGOs would be in favor of the precautionary principle. Their united silence on the issue of EMR, 5G, and 5G from space speaks volumes for their true loyalties. From small, truly committed groups of individuals they have all grown into gigantic organizations whose main aim is less saving nature than self-perpetuation. In any case it is odd, given the general outcry of concern about the effects of 5G, that they are saying nothing.
The argumentum ad hominem on a pogo stick!
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Old Yesterday, 18:58   #1686
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OP: Do you really understand what you are posting?

The Starlink satellite network is not "5G from space". Is not beaming 5G signals to phones. It is a communications network sending data of all kinds around the globe, it will be used for the Internet whatever your connection. If you are plugged in with a wire or connecting wirelessly with 3G, 4G or 5G your data may well go via Starlink, or via a fibre optic cable or via geostationary satellites, you will have no choice or say in the matter.

There is a good video explaining what it is and what it does here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giQ8xEWjnBs

The Washington Post link was nothing to do with EMR.
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Old Yesterday, 20:59   #1687
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Mono,

The Starlink video is quite interesting and informative.

However, since I can't find it, would you please indicate on which post Diana made reference to Starlink.

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Old Today, 00:49   #1688
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Hey Diana,

NYT and WaPo articles are behind a paywall for non-subscribers, at least in the US. Unless it's possible to download a PDF of the article and post it as an attachment, therefore, any discussion about it is necessarily limited to subscribers—which in some cases is tantamount to an echo chamber. Book citations can be similar, so I usually attach a PDF of the page or section under discussion.

Just a simple request.
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Old Today, 01:49   #1689
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Hey Diana,

NYT and WaPo articles are behind a paywall for non-subscribers, at least in the US. Unless it's possible to download a PDF of the article and post it as an attachment, therefore, any discussion about it is necessarily limited to subscribers—which in some cases is tantamount to an echo chamber. Book citations can be similar, so I usually attach a PDF of the page or section under discussion.

Just a simple request.
Thanks,
Ed
Hi Ed,

I was able to view the WaPo article, but can't make a pdf on this device. Even I run into view limits per month (with NYT anyway). The gist of it was that use of automated navigation assistance daily results in atrophy / functioning changes of the hippocampus / prefrontal cortex ...... (as opposed to old skool London taxi drivers with hard won mental maps who have brains the size of the Martians from the movie "When Mars Attacks!" :)

Here is the source research published in the journal Nature:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14652

Agree with yourself that a pdf of the WaPo article would be useful, and also agree with Mono that it's nothing to do with EMR.

P.S. As an anecdotal aside, I have encountered a few 'spatially disoriented' older folk on my shuttle bus trips lately, and after a brief chat none of them would have ever used Navmans, TomToms, or Smartphones to get around, so the cause of vagueness lay elsewhere ....



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Old Today, 08:54   #1690
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Hi Ed,

I was able to view the WaPo article, but can't make a pdf on this device. Even I run into view limits per month (with NYT anyway). The gist of it was that use of automated navigation assistance daily results in atrophy / functioning changes of the hippocampus / prefrontal cortex ...... (as opposed to old skool London taxi drivers with hard won mental maps who have brains the size of the Martians from the movie "When Mars Attacks!" :)

Here is the source research published in the journal Nature:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14652

Agree with yourself that a pdf of the WaPo article would be useful, and also agree with Mono that it's nothing to do with EMR.

P.S. As an anecdotal aside, I have encountered a few 'spatially disoriented' older folk on my shuttle bus trips lately, and after a brief chat none of them would have ever used Navmans, TomToms, or Smartphones to get around, so the cause of vagueness lay elsewhere ....

Chosun
Thanks, Chosun.

From the Nature website, I downloaded the article in PDF form (attached). I've skimmed it once and will take a more detailed look tomorrow, but so far nothing suggests the conclusion that "... use of automated navigation assistance daily results in atrophy/functioning changes of the hippocampus/prefrontal cortex ..." These guys are trying to figure out where various activities take place in the brain, after all.

Still, wish I had a PDF of the WaPo article available for comparison, and perhaps Diana could also state her purpose in posting the link. Frankly, at this point, I can't help wondering whether the WaPo science writer was summarizing the content of the article (which is esoteric, to say the least), or giving it simplified meaning.

Ed
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