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New Product Introduction Today From Swarovski ? (1 Viewer)

Which equates or replicates to you moving the binoculars up and down whilst observing a subject, not something I usually do when endeavouring to keep everything steady.

We all move our binoculars up and down, due to the Binos weight, their length and Gravity

The forehead is not a steady place in any way, maybe excepted in one horizontal direction ("maybe" because it's your neck muscles who can block your head).

But as the Binos shakes are mostly on a vertical axis rather than on a horizontal one, an horizontal block doesn't help (that's why a Finnstick helps).

Not even talking about the fact that eyes and forehead are not on the same vertical plane, so the "theoritical stability" of 3 points is doubtful.
 
BIN BASHING is no different then I see in the Nikon Camera Forums and I myself take it with a grain of salt. The new Nikon D6 just came out that I own and already bashers that never own or will never own are quick to look at internet verbosity and pass it on as gospel. I will buy something no matter what the internet wizards have to say if I want it..

Is there anything you don't own? I am going to take a guess at your true identity .... Bill Gates.

Pete.
 
Can you send me a link for these 8 x 30 EL FPs please? Twice they've been mentioned today, thank you.
The seller is in the UK but they don't SHIP to the UK. Maybe it is because the dollar is stronger than the pound.


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https://www.ebay.com/sch/cameracentreuk/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
 
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Is there anything you don't own? I am going to take a guess at your true identity .... Bill Gates.

Pete.

Swaro, the industry leader, has less than $200mm in annual optics sales, so I suspect BulbMogul's hobby is eminently affordable.
Certainly dramatically more reasonable values than in art collecting.
Space is the biggest issue, which is also why most art is locked in Geneva vaults, rather than on museum walls.
 
Swaro

Swaro, the industry leader, has less than $200mm in annual optics sales, so I suspect BulbMogul's hobby is eminently affordable.
Certainly dramatically more reasonable values than in art collecting.
Space is the biggest issue, which is also why most art is locked in Geneva vaults, rather than on museum walls.

Not to mention what some Telescopes go for, that can be a very expensive hobby.

Andy W.
 
Of the people that were going to order the new Zeiss 8x32 SF how many of you have changed your order for the new Swarovski NL Pure and why or why not?

I was thinking about getting the 10x32 SF, Dennis.
But when I saw the new 12x42 NL Pure, I now want those.
Why? ...because they're there! |8)|
Besides, I started with Swarovski and it's about time I returned, I suppose.
...and like I mentioned before, I still get to keep my favorite adjusting wheel of all time and get 20% more power with the new NL Pure. :t:

If Zeiss would make a 12x42 SF, I might stay with them but doubt seriously that will happen!
Heck, I still might get the 10x32 SF eventually. |=)|
 
The big assumption here is that people actually have steady heads - and I'm not sure that's the case ! :eek!: :cat: B :)

Your head doesn't have to be steady. The binocular will move with you head movement's in perfect synchronization!:king:

Dennis - that's crazy talk ! - even for you ! :bounce:

Even if the binocular was permanently glued to your forehead, there will be relative movements of variable frequency, and some randomness in direction, in distance, velocity, and accelerations, between your head, your body, the ground, and your viewing subject, and it's movements, and that's before we've even mentioned the coriolis effect ! - ie the resultant end is varying amounts of shake and blur.

Like Kimmo said, it will help a bit .......





Chosun :gh:
 
Is the Zen ray ED or HD.

Listing for an HD below.

https://www.cloudynights.com/classifieds/item/213155-zen-ray-zrs-10x42/

Andy W.

"Maybe Chosun will finally, finally upgrade from the much touted Zen Ray."

:-O:-O:-O:-O:-O

Neither - it's the uniquely bodied ED3. There's a lot of commonality in the design direction with the Swarovski EL SV open bridge, yet it somehow is much better in the hand. Best by far.

I really am not that fussed about the feel in the hand of the 42mm SV's - they're a bit small, especially the focus wheel. The 50mm SV's are better - very steady to hold (at least in 10x). The 32mm SV's are way small to hold - for me it's something akin to a praying mantis trying to skin a grain of rice ! ..... though if that compact format is what you are after (great for fitting in a handbag) then they are very nice - especially in the lovely tan colour ! :t: :king:





Chosun :gh:
 
I was thinking about getting the 10x32 SF, Dennis.
But when I saw the new 12x42 NL Pure, I now want those.
Why? ...because they're there! |8)|
Besides, I started with Swarovski and it's about time I returned, I suppose.
...and like I mentioned before, I still get to keep my favorite adjusting wheel of all time and get 20% more power with the new NL Pure. :t:

If Zeiss would make a 12x42 SF, I might stay with them but doubt seriously that will happen!
Heck, I still might get the 10x32 SF eventually. |=)|
That NL Pure 12x42 with that huge FOV for a 12x is very interesting, especially with the head rest. It will be interesting to see how much it helps you hold the higher magnification like 12x steady. A 12x under 30 oz. would be nice.
 
Dennis - that's crazy talk ! - even for you ! :bounce:

Even if the binocular was permanently glued to your forehead, there will be relative movements of variable frequency, and some randomness in direction, in distance, velocity, and accelerations, between your head, your body, the ground, and your viewing subject, and it's movements, and that's before we've even mentioned the coriolis effect ! - ie the resultant end is varying amounts of shake and blur.

Like Kimmo said, it will help a bit .......





Chosun :gh:
Chosun.I would be very interested to see a resolution study on the NL's with and without the head rest and Kimmo would be just the one to do it. What is the temperature in your location right now. I was watching the Gold Rush segment where Parker was gold mining in Australia and every place he went it seemed god awful hot and dry!
 
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Chosun.I would be very interested to see a resolution study on the NL's with and without the head rest and Kimmo would be just the one to do it. What is the temperature in your location right now. I was watching the Gold Rush segment where Parker was gold mining in Australia and every place he went it seemed god awful hot and dry!

Sounds like a plan. If it is the 10x NL, then it would be possible to do a 4 way test with a proper IS bin like the Canon 10x42L IS.

Lol - it's middle of winter here .... Temps ranging from low single digits to a sneak over 20 if we're lucky (that's proper °C - none of this 18th Century layers of beaver pelts or whatever you folks use ! :-O )






Chosun :gh:
 
Perhaps it’s a useful time to provide some context for the NL . . .

Early History
Swarovski commenced roof prism binocular production in 1985 with the 8x30 SLC. The x42 models followed in 1992, with the x50 ones in 1997 and the x56’s in 1998 and 1999
However, both Leica (then Leitz) and Zeiss had started much earlier

Leitz had made three commercially unsuccessful attempts in the 1950’s with the Oberon, the Amplivid and the initial Trinovid branded models
However, in 1963 it introduced an all new and highly successful line also named Trinovid (the line was replaced in 1990 with the all new and successful Leica BA series)

Zeiss commenced producing modern roof prism binoculars in 1964 with the 8x30 Dialyt, and the 10x40 version following in 1968 *
(in 1968 Zeiss also commenced production of the 8x56 Hensoldt pattern binocular - a design that dated back to the start of the century)
And in 1994 it introduced the all new Night Owl line

* it had also produced various commercial models prior to WWII, see posts #83 to 87 at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=385822&page=4


The EL
In 1999 Swarovski introduced the EL. While it’s optics were conventional (and similar to those of the SLC), the dual bridge axle-less design combined with centre focus was unique
The EL also marked the first use by Swarovski of magnesium for the main body components

And while not apparent to many users, what made the design possible was a very complex focusing mechanism routed through the narrow rear bridge arms,
see the images at: https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=4027395&postcount=18


The EL Swarovision
In 2009 Swarovski introduced the next generation, the EL Swarovision. This time the difference for users was the optics
The term Swarovision was used to describe a set of features:
- most notably a flattened field of view, along with
- use of HD glass in the objectives *
- longer eye relief, and
- improved image colour and transmission

* besides the necessarily more complex eyepiece, the EL SV also introduced a more complex objective construction

Additionally, the EL SV included a complete redesign of the focuser mechanism (see the above link)


The EL FieldPro
In 2015 the FieldPro upgrade of the EL SV was introduced. It was primarily a new attachment system for the the neck strap and objective covers (and is continued on the NL)
However, on the EL SV it also included a ‘belt and braces’ modification to the diopter lock, see: https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3862091&postcount=12


The NL
And in 2020 the NL has arrived. While there is a variety of new detail, what’s most notable are:
- the EL SV pattern optics have been redesigned to provide a class leading field of view (an increase on those of the x42 Zeiss SF’s)

- the radical new ergonomics of the narrow waisted body for thumb and index finger placement, which incorporates an optimised oval cross-section
(so different to and perhaps and an advance on the Zeiss SF’s ergonomics), and

- the optional FRP forehead rest

And again the design will necessarily include a new and complex focus mechanism

cont.
 
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Some Observations

a) The EL was a radical departure from anything else available. The physical design provided holding options not previously available in CF binoculars
And both in it’s own right, and in terms of imitation, the design became a market leader

Until the introduction of the EL, one touted advantage of roof prism designs with a full length piano style hinge, was their supposed durability over conventional Porro designs
with 2 narrow hinges joined by an axle
However, considering the number of EL’s (and EL SV’s, and EL imitators) in circulation, their abbreviated hinges have not proven to be a weakness in practice


b) Similarly, the EL SV has also proven itself as a market leader both in it’s own right, and in terms of imitation
e.g. among other, Zeiss, Leica and Nikon have all offered flat field (and open bridge area) designs


c) Conceptually, the NL can be seen as the next stage of the EL development - though in terms of it’s physical shape it’s a distinctly new design -
which may be some inspiration for the N designation

It seems to mark a trend towards even wider fields of view, in combination with an even greater stress on ergonomics. And again it may set a new standard
The drastically reduced circumference of the barrels in the focuser area is certainly unique
However at this point, my provisional concern would be that the ergonomic design may prove to be a step too far - at least for some

The advantage of the open bridge design of the EL/ EL SV is that it provides greater flexibility in holding options compared to an enclosed full length bridge,
and thus better caters to different hand sizes and holding preferences

e.g. especially when using larger binoculars like my EL SV 12x50’s for extended periods, I prefer to both:
- use an asymmetric hold (one hand in front of the other), and
- vary my hand placement on the barrels (including reversing the symmetry - and which hand operates the focuser)
This minimises muscle rigidity and fatigue, both in my hands and arms
And often only minor movement of a hand - around 1” (25 mm) - is sufficient to make a difference

In contrast, for some the NL design may prove overly restrictive - especially in relation to flexibility of the positioning of the hand operating the focuser

And more generally, while the NL's ergonomics may may fit some like a glove, an additional concern would be that a one size glove is unlikely to fit all equally as well
(in this instance perhaps those with especially large hands?)


John
 
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John, half of what you are giving Swarovski credit for (like open bridge) has been invented / applied first by other makers. Are you just talking “marketing”?
 
Hi temmie,

I’m not sure what specific examples you’re thinking of - though I’m always open to correction
While axle-less designs go back to at least late 19th century field glasses, as far as I’m aware they were all IF
The EL's axle-less design combined with CF was a significant technical and functional innovation


John
 
I was specifically commenting this line:
"Similarly, the EL SV has also proven itself as a market leader both in it’s own right, and in terms of imitation
e.g. among other, Zeiss, Leica and Nikon have all offered flat field (and open bridge area) designs"


Ofcourse the combination of axle-less and central focusing is introduced with the EL in 1999, but not the open bridge.

Other "marketing" I would like to point out:

1. "The term Swarovision was used to describe a set of features:
- most notably, a flattened field of view
- use of HD glass in the objectives *
- longer eye relief, and
- improved image colour and transmission"

It seems like Nikon should have marketed their LXL line as "swarovision" before the word even existed.
And besides the field flattening, the swarovision still didn't top e.g. a Zeiss FL in terms of HD glass, eye relief and transmission (it was 5 years too late for that).

2. "And in 2020 the NL has arrived. While there is a variety of new detail, what’s most notable are:
- the EL SV pattern optics have been redesigned to provide a class leading field of view (an increase on those of the x42 Zeiss SF’s)"

It's like saying that after Roger Federer topped the tennis rankings for 2 decades and claiming that Djokovic is suddenly class leading because he is topping the ranks for a week. Swarovski had never really cared about FOV and I never heard any raving (or critique on Swarovski) when other makers had wider FOV. The general consensus between Swaro fans was always that they 'would rather have a sharp FOV until the edge than anything that is wide and gets more blurry'. I personally welcome wide FOV but it seems many are raving about it now, only because Swarovski is putting emphasis on it.

3. "And again while not apparent to users, the design will necessarily include a new and complex focus mechanism"

Why do you think this? Because of the narrowed center of the body? One thing you could say about the EL/swarovision complex focusing mechanism is not trying to market is as something wonderful, but rather something that made focusing in the EL / Swarovision slow. As Zeiss showed with the SF, you can make it a fast focuser but for some reason Swaro made it focus slow. So actually, that complex focuser of Swaro was, imho, subpar in most aspects. I wonder now (and have read it here, I think Jan Van Daalen wrote it) that the NL will have a faster focuser. So effectively, they now have produced a faster focusing, wide FOV binocular. Not exactly leading the way as others have done it before (Zeiss SF, that is).

4. "The EL was a radical departure from anything else available. The physical design provided holding options not previously available in CF binoculars"

While there are some more options to hold in theory, in practice I find it personally a gimmick.

5. "Similarly, the EL SV has also proven itself as a market leader both in it’s own right, and in terms of imitation
e.g. among other, Zeiss, Leica and Nikon have all offered flat field (and open bridge area) designs"

Nikon SE does not agree regarding the flat field.


Don't get me wrong, I like improvements in binoculars, and Swarovski is the market leader for reasons of combining attractive design, quality among the best and exceptional customer service, but your text reads as giving it too much credit for being a kind of innovator. In my view, they are more like Apple: they combine existing inventions into sleek, attractive products that are also expensive.

If making the analogy with cars: The NL is probably the first binocular from Swarovski that gets me a bit excited because I like what is under the hood. The EL had nice bodywork but a standard engine. A bit like a Mercedes B-class that people buy to get a Mercedes, but most don't know it has engines delivered by Renault. Nothing wrong with that but nothing special either.
The Swarovision had the same nice bodywork and nice comfortable seats. A bit like a Volvo: a very nice car but it still didn't win any race.
The NL finally has some impressive features under the hood, but unlike a true agile racecar, they built it too heavy.

So unless that wide FOV is superimpressive and I could handle the extra weight, I would probably look into lighter (8x32) binoculars that punch above their weight. The most attractive option in the NL line looks to be the 12x42 because you have that extra 2x combined with a comfortable FOV.
 
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