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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 01:22   #76
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Exclamation I’ve seriously tried to believe capitalism & the planet can coexist, but lost faith

https://theconversation.com/ive-seri...Ja08ONITWPyDFM

"If capitalism is still the dominant economic system in 2050, current trends suggest our planetary ecosystems will be, at best, on the brink of collapse."

Is capitalism itself now up for discussion .... ?






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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 05:22   #77
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Surely, if ever a thread belonged in Ruffled Feathers, this is it. . ..
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 06:39   #78
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Surely, if ever a thread belonged in Ruffled Feathers, this is it. . ..
Surely you troll.

How about making a comment on the article posted instead.

Tell us - how is your modern capitalist world working out for you ? - infinite growth model vs finite environment.

How are those developed world environmental laws working out for you? Preventing extinctions have/are they? How's the environmental health metrics trend looking these days? All hunky dory is it?

Not expecting any genuine answers, but the articles, questions, etc, posed are for those fair dinkum folk that actually give a shirt, and are perhaps open to learning something/ questioning the status quo/ changing their small lot and sphere of influence for the better ..........






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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 17:02   #79
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Surely you troll.

How about making a comment on the article posted instead.

Tell us - how is your modern capitalist world working out for you ? - infinite growth model vs finite environment.

How are those developed world environmental laws working out for you? Preventing extinctions have/are they? How's the environmental health metrics trend looking these days? All hunky dory is it?

Not expecting any genuine answers, but the articles, questions, etc, posed are for those fair dinkum folk that actually give a shirt, and are perhaps open to learning something/ questioning the status quo/ changing their small lot and sphere of influence for the better ..........
My capitalist world??

Unrestrained (population) “growth” (as per the “article”) is indeed the problem as I and others have repeatedly pointed out in this and other threads. Unfortunately (also as per the article and also as I and others have repeatedly pointed out in this and other threads) there is nothing much to be done about it sans profound changes in human attitudes and behavior extremely unlikely to ever take place in other than catastrophic conditions. Not with a whimper but a bang. . ..

Ruffled Feathers, not for the sweet nothings in the earnest little article under discussion, but for the unremitting Noble Savage/New Age claptrap upthread
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 21:53   #80
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My capitalist world??

Unrestrained (population) “growth” (as per the “article”) is indeed the problem as I and others have repeatedly pointed out in this and other threads. Unfortunately (also as per the article and also as I and others have repeatedly pointed out in this and other threads) there is nothing much to be done about it sans profound changes in human attitudes and behavior extremely unlikely to ever take place in other than catastrophic conditions. Not with a whimper but a bang. . ..

Ruffled Feathers, not for the sweet nothings in the sober little article under discussion, but for the unremitting Noble Savage/New Age claptrap upthread
Repeated expressions of hate and disrespect for those who have a different background and perspective than yourself is much more a reason for BF management to sanction you than to recategorize the OP's strong interests in Conservation.

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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 00:29   #81
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Repeated expressions of hate and disrespect for those who have a different background and perspective than yourself is much more a reason for BF management to sanction you than to recategorize the OP's strong interests in Conservation.

Ed
Somehow, I think you didn't understand the bolded part...
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 00:31   #82
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Repeated expressions of hate and disrespect for those who have a different background and perspective than yourself is much more a reason for BF management to sanction you than to recategorize the OP's strong interests in Conservation.
Disrespect, certainly, CJ and I have a long history on BF of “disrespecting” each other’s views. But, hate? C’mon, Ed, pull yourself together. . ..
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 01:57   #83
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Disrespect, certainly, CJ and I have a long history on BF of “disrespecting” each other’s views. But, hate? C’mon, Ed, pull yourself together. . ..
Ed has identified something there. I'm sure the underlying psychology of it is fascinating. Diversity of views, listening, and worldview are all key topics of this thread.

You're going to have to speak for yourself alone though - I'm not going to buddy up in any tribe of two with you ! I've never disrespected your views (not tolerated some behaviours certainly) - I just happen to understand that your views are your views, and that doesn't necessarily make them the entirety of reality.

Regardless of whether you can conceive of wisdom that lays outside and beyond your own remit, the facts remain.

The world is headed toward a solid wall at 100mph, going to heck in a handbag (and has done so no matter which coloured head is on top of the political coin - so your answers aren't there).

The very best of current environmental laws is not preventing it, nor is the greenest of the green movements or politics. So now what ? I would have thought a man such as yourself would have an enquiring mind .......

Give yourself a medal for cherry picking population growth from the article. I've never refuted that as a factor. However it is not the whole story. Far from it. If that is all you have taken from the article then you have missed the point. The wisdom will still be there in the everywhen when you're ready, until then I am genuinely interested in anyone's viewpoints and solutions ....... I can't think of a more important game in town






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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 07:03   #84
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I think the main problem that "ruffles the feathers" of many participants is the futility if any discussion here. This is essentially Chosun's personal space on the topic, where she has never shown any willingness to actually engage in a real discussion nor to change her views by a millimeter. Most of her reactions to other people are the same "you are wrong, this is how things are" - sometimes there is an attempt to bring forward evidence, but when called up on the validity of the evidence, more dogmatism is provided, followed by random quotations of sources and people with a worldview aligned to hers. I am not sure if advocating for a "soft removal" of the topic is the best course of action though - for one, it somehow serves as a containment vessel for the contents.

Chosun, if you want to ever have any other kind of experience in any forum that is not a carefully crafted echo chamber only allowing the participation of people who already have the "right" opinions, you simply need to change the way you approach discussion - coming it with a clear conviction that your view is the only correct one will never lead to an engaging discussion, nor will careful cherry picking of evidence to support a foregone conclusion. And when you present arguments based more on your spirituality then palpable evidence, you need to accept that other people don't have any obligation to take those seriously - spirituality is just one of the ways to look at the world and is not automatically superior to the lack thereof
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 12:35   #85
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I think the main problem that "ruffles the feathers" of many participants is the futility if any discussion here. This is essentially Chosun's personal space on the topic, where she has never shown any willingness to actually engage in a real discussion nor to change her views by a millimeter. Most of her reactions to other people are the same "you are wrong, this is how things are" - sometimes there is an attempt to bring forward evidence, but when called up on the validity of the evidence, more dogmatism is provided, followed by random quotations of sources and people with a worldview aligned to hers. I am not sure if advocating for a "soft removal" of the topic is the best course of action though - for one, it somehow serves as a containment vessel for the contents.
What's more, Chosun has essentially turned the entire conservation subforum into the "Chosun thoughts and comments forum", which pretty much has driven off most other folks and stifled discussion of anything else. When I scan through the forums, I only click on threads in this forum where I can see someone else has actually posted most recently. That's pretty uncommon in general, since most of the recent threads are essentially Chosun having a conversation with herself
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 12:56   #86
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My overall two cents on this topic.

One, I don't necessarily disagree with with elements of this idea. Certainly local responsible management of resources is going to be better than factory farming or strip mining. There are a lot of smaller scale practices carried out by native peoples that are far better for the environment than those carried out by colonists, or at least neutral.

Secondly, If Chosun's thesis is correct, it's not going to overall a long term solution. As others have commented, Human population growth has put us at a point that many indigenous practices are not going to be viable to maintain civilization. There are solutions to be found there in keeping certain environments from worsening, but we are not going to be able to employ those methods globally to the scale needed. At best, perhaps after long term scaling back of human population growth, we will be able to incorporate some of these practices at a wider scales.

Third, I think this really does fall prey to shifting baselines and the "noble savage" trope. We look at traditional practices that were present at the arrival of Europeans and see various peoples seemingly living in harmony with nature. However in almost all cases the "harmony" we are seeing was engineered by intentional and unintentional modifications of the environment which occurred hundreds if not thousands of years before the arrival of Europeans. Take a hard look at megafaunal extinctions: With the exception of SE Asia and Africa, which had long periods of time where humans essentially evolved alongside the ecosystems, we get an almost wholesale lost of biodiversity shortly after human arrival, and the loss of many of those animals completely changed the ecosystems present. Losing the mammoths of North America meant that arctic grassland in general disappeared, as well as spruce parkland: Two unique habitats no longer present in North America. Similarly, it's believed that overuse of fire in Australia completely changed the environment and spurred intense aridification for instance which almost certainly impacted the native megafauna on top of human hunting. The introduction of the Dingo also was a bad blow, wiping out many native predators from the mainland (Thylacines and "Tasmanian" Devils were once widely distributed on the continent).

Effectively, judging the stewardship of the environment on European arrival is not taking in the full historical context. It's like judging the present environment of say, Great Britain, and making the leap that everything is fine and dandy, and not realizing how much deforestation and introductions occurred, or how many predators were extirpated. Indigenous communities were good stewards of their "environments", but lets not pretend those environments weren't already heavily altered or that they are in anyway "pristine".
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 13:46   #87
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Lightbulb

Anyone else is welcome to join in ! Intelligent thought provoking comments and insights would be ideal. Insults, derision, condescension and vitriol are not.

I doubt that many people even click on the links I post. I just post the knowledge - it's up to other individuals if they are brave enough to contemplate it. I understand the resistance.

Taken as a theme, the threads I have posted paint a dire picture. They are riddled with the work of extremely well respected scientists such as Professor Richard Kingsford, Professor David Lindenmayer, the many Professors of the Wentworth Group, even people shunned by the scientific community for decades such as Peter Andrews OAM - only to be later lauded. I have brought you seminal books such as Sandtalk, Call of the Reed Warbler, The Biggest Estate on Earth, Dark Emu, etc. These are right up there in the same vein as 'Silent Spring' by Rachel Carson. I have brought you globally cutting edge practicioners - Peter Andrews, Colin Seis etc. These are consumate professionals that have dedicated their lives to sorting this environmental mess in their respective fields.

Heck, I even posted the IPBES report which has drawn a sum total of zero comments. Your world is going down the toilet.

If you think it's an echo chamber then post something that proves the world is hunky dory. My guess is I'd better enjoy the company of *crickets* ......

I have not even revealed a fraction of the sophistication or knowledge - for some we're going to run into the old camel through the eye of a needle thing. There is a cohort who views Indigenous peoples as savages, backwards, unadvanced. It must be confronting to realise that all that you know is wrong.

The Original people of Australia have thrived through meteroite strikes bringing 'nuclear winter', glaciation, inundation, drought, volcanoes, and more - they co-existed with Megafauna for 10's of 1000's of years. The governance of these societies is the real gem.

When you've been around for 100's of 1000's of years, watching the destruction wrought over the last few 100 is like watching a 2 year old child throwing a temper tantrum. Much will be revealed coming up. I urge people to do a Google search for "Aboriginal Flag Sunrise" .... a picture taken (maybe even by a BF member) on the 1st day of 2020 ...... now seriously - what's the go with that ?

It is not a case of going backwards at all, but rather going forwards.







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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 14:30   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
My overall two cents on this topic.

One, I don't necessarily disagree with with elements of this idea. Certainly local responsible management of resources is going to be better than factory farming or strip mining. There are a lot of smaller scale practices carried out by native peoples that are far better for the environment than those carried out by colonists, or at least neutral.

Secondly, If Chosun's thesis is correct, it's not going to overall a long term solution. As others have commented, Human population growth has put us at a point that many indigenous practices are not going to be viable to maintain civilization. There are solutions to be found there in keeping certain environments from worsening, but we are not going to be able to employ those methods globally to the scale needed. At best, perhaps after long term scaling back of human population growth, we will be able to incorporate some of these practices at a wider scales.

Third, I think this really does fall prey to shifting baselines and the "noble savage" trope. We look at traditional practices that were present at the arrival of Europeans and see various peoples seemingly living in harmony with nature. However in almost all cases the "harmony" we are seeing was engineered by intentional and unintentional modifications of the environment which occurred hundreds if not thousands of years before the arrival of Europeans. Take a hard look at megafaunal extinctions: With the exception of SE Asia and Africa, which had long periods of time where humans essentially evolved alongside the ecosystems, we get an almost wholesale lost of biodiversity shortly after human arrival, and the loss of many of those animals completely changed the ecosystems present. Losing the mammoths of North America meant that arctic grassland in general disappeared, as well as spruce parkland: Two unique habitats no longer present in North America. Similarly, it's believed that overuse of fire in Australia completely changed the environment and spurred intense aridification for instance which almost certainly impacted the native megafauna on top of human hunting. The introduction of the Dingo also was a bad blow, wiping out many native predators from the mainland (Thylacines and "Tasmanian" Devils were once widely distributed on the continent).

Effectively, judging the stewardship of the environment on European arrival is not taking in the full historical context. It's like judging the present environment of say, Great Britain, and making the leap that everything is fine and dandy, and not realizing how much deforestation and introductions occurred, or how many predators were extirpated. Indigenous communities were good stewards of their "environments", but lets not pretend those environments weren't already heavily altered or that they are in anyway "pristine".
Mysticete - or Mystic eternal as my spellchecker likes to call you :)

You are one at least (there are many more) that engages on a genuine level, and that is appreciated.

I take your point about 1770 representing a snapshot in a movie, rather than a fixed steady state. I hope you can at least be open to my point that what is known of 'prehistory' is a mere fraction of what will become known - prepare to have the current story flipped on its head.

You have to be cogniscent that much of the truth has been deliberately repressed to serve an ulterior purpose - I would highly recommend that you read 'Dark Emu' by Bruce Pascoe. The 'savage' is far more noble and advanced than many are prepared to handle. One day there will be a recognised nexus between Quantum Mechanics and Metaphysics - for a culture of adept elders that everywhen exists now. There is much more to it than this, but I'd wager that already I have exceeded the capacity of people's lived experiences and even imaginations.

Fundamentally what we are talking about is not so much any particular management practice, but rather a philosophy, worldview, and way of being, a feeling - an inseperable innate connection that informs lore (law) and governance. Egalitarianism between sexes, between peoples, between species - It is a sustainability born of spirit.

I know there are many smart, highly qualified, accomplished people who frequent BF ...... how many I wonder, have stopped long enough to contemplate that 'money' is an artificial construct. We are destroying a real world for a fictional notion.

That is the major point of difference. I think that it has brought us to an examination of 'environmental value' beyond mere ecosystem services, foregone revenue, or even substitution cost, beyond the interplay of environmental law, and into the capitalist system itself, is a fitting step in the process.

The article I posted contains some links to more researched material which would be worthwhile to explore ......





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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 15:11   #89
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Can you please at least not comment on Quantum Mechanics, about which you quite obviously have no actual knowledge? Comments like these really undermine any attempt on scientific relevance of the other points you make, because that's just complete snake oil.
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 17:29   #90
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. . .If you think it's an echo chamber then post something that proves the world is hunky dory.
Nobody here thinks the world is hunky dory. We just take issue with your impractical “solutions”.

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. I have not even revealed a fraction of the sophistication or knowledge . . .
Revealed?? Wow! A matter of straight to your ear from the everywhen*, is it?

———————————————————————————-
*A lovely word which I enjoy using.

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. There is a cohort who views Indigenous peoples as savages, backwards, unadvanced.
“Savages”, as widely used by anthropologists in the 19th century as a descriptor of hunting & gathering societies is long obsolete (and now considered offensive) and few people use it nowadays.

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. The Original people of Australia have thrived through meteroite strikes bringing 'nuclear winter', glaciation, inundation, drought, volcanoes. . ..
So have we all, just not in Australia.

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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
. When you've been around for 100's of 1000's of years, watching the destruction wrought over the last few 100 is like watching a 2 year old child throwing a temper tantrum.
See previous comment. The notion that a people’s very-very-long-residence-in-just-one-place somehow confers “wisdom” is simply silly.
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 18:04   #91
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Can you please at least not comment on Quantum Mechanics, about which you quite obviously have no actual knowledge? Comments like these really undermine any attempt on scientific relevance of the other points you make, because that's just complete snake oil.
“Quantum mechanics” is a stock-in-trade of the goofier sort of western mystic*. When I pointed out QM’s irrelevance to events in the macro-world to Chosun in another thread, she replied that she was using the term in a ”deeper” sense than “western scientists“. Or with words very much to that effect.

——————————————————————
*I first encountered this usage years ago in an solemnly related anecdote about a piece of learning by monkeys on one island being instantaneously communicated to conspecifics on another. The triumphantly flourished punchline: “Quantum Mechanics”!
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Old Wednesday 26th February 2020, 01:12   #92
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. . .there are many smart, highly qualified, accomplished people who frequent BF ...... how many I wonder, have stopped long enough to contemplate that 'money' is an artificial construct.
How about every single one? Even the dimmest among us knows it doesn't grow on trees. . ..
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Old Wednesday 26th February 2020, 08:17   #93
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How about every single one? Even the dimmest among us knows it doesn't grow on trees. . ..
Hmmm, you say that but it's one of the things so taken for granted that we don't even think about it and how we would cope without it. Along with things like the internal combustion chamber, internet and phones. I doubt that most people give even a seconds thought in a whole year.
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Old Wednesday 26th February 2020, 11:42   #94
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I am not even really sure how to parse your reply to me. But I don't have any idea what quantum mechanics has to do with anything, and adds a new-agey "Wizard did it" vibe that really isn't helping your argument.

There is a lot we don't know about the chronology of aboriginal settlement of Australia and it's early history, I will certainly acknowledge that, if that is what you are referencing?
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Old Wednesday 26th February 2020, 12:24   #95
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Well kinda. I think it will be very interesting to see what the 'consensus' view is in future (if there ever is such a thing). Elders tell me that they never arrived from anywhere - that they've always been here. It's something that's known via 100's of 1000's of years of dreaming ..... that 'Wizard's' magic ..... everyone else is going to have to wait for the bones and meteorites to be dated and agreed upon.

We shouldn't let any incomprehension of these spiritual mysteries distract us from the ancient worldview, law, and governance gems on offer though. Far from being a primitive anachronism, they are advanced technologies that the arriving colonists just happened not to be advanced enough to recognize.

Even if the full depths of wisdom are not recognized today, a growing number of people in the world are waking up to the brick wall that we are hurtling towards under the present system.

I will give a current example. We are just coming out of a years long widespread drought - one that has had severe impacts on the ecology of the Murray-Darling basin as I have detailed in that thread (basically think of an area the size of France and Germany combined ..... stuffed). A drought (and exploitation) that has seen the majority of decades old Murray Cod go belly up, millions of fish killed, mussel beds that have sustained Indigenous peoples for thousands of years just about permanently destroyed, Communities deprived of cultural practice and even fresh drinking water. Iconic animals such as Rakali and Platypus threatened - pushed closer to local extinctions, 70% or more of bird numbers lost .......... and what is the very first thing the corporate forces do when it rains? Push (and succeed) in getting moratoriums on water extraction lifted - threatened species and downstream ecology and peoples be damned.





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Old Wednesday 26th February 2020, 12:38   #96
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How about every single one? Even the dimmest among us knows it doesn't grow on trees. . ..
Au contraire - the real problem is that it does.
Outside of a narrow slice of nature that is 'protected' the rest of it has no intrinsic monetary value or right to existence in an of itself.

If we look past the emerging (but still minority) notions of an economic value assigned to 'ecosystem services' , 'bio-banking' , 'or even carbon offsets' , then the natural world has no inherent value. It is 'free'. Free to be exploited for monetary gain.

If even the "dimmest among us" know this then why do we accept a system that promotes (via the economic growth imperative) the inequitable, unsustainable, exploitation of the natural world .... ? The very thing that supports life on earth.





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Old Wednesday 26th February 2020, 19:12   #97
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Well kinda. I think it will be very interesting to see what the 'consensus' view is in future (if there ever is such a thing). Elders tell me that they never arrived from anywhere - that they've always been here. It's something that's known via 100's of 1000's of years of dreaming ..... that 'Wizard's' magic ..... everyone else is going to have to wait for the bones and meteorites to be dated and agreed upon.
Err...the scientific consensus is 100% that humans came to Australia via elsewhere. The out of Africa hypothesis has almost overwhelming support from genetics and the fossil record. The topic of debate is focused on exactly when they crossed over (I feel 40,000 is a number I have heard the most? But may have been somewhat earlier and later).

Every culture has there own origin myth: by default they all can't be true, and science pretty much doesn't back up any of them.

You keep mentioning meteorites. Why? I know there have been folks arguing that the Younger Dryas climate event may have been meteor induced, but the evidence is thin and most disputed. I am not aware of any major asteroid event impacting the globe since the extinction that nuked the dinosaurs. Certainly not since humans evolved, although there have been other catastrophes of course.
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Old Thursday 27th February 2020, 00:16   #98
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Err...the scientific consensus is 100% that humans came to Australia via elsewhere. The out of Africa hypothesis has almost overwhelming support from genetics and the fossil record. The topic of debate is focused on exactly when they crossed over (I feel 40,000 is a number I have heard the most? But may have been somewhat earlier and later).

Every culture has there own origin myth: by default they all can't be true, and science pretty much doesn't back up any of them.

You keep mentioning meteorites. Why? I know there have been folks arguing that the Younger Dryas climate event may have been meteor induced, but the evidence is thin and most disputed. I am not aware of any major asteroid event impacting the globe since the extinction that nuked the dinosaurs. Certainly not since humans evolved, although there have been other catastrophes of course.
Perhaps science is only aware so far of a subset of reality. The scientifically agreed picture then is open to change - flipped on it's head even .....

There are Aboriginal Nations in the Wolfe Creek area that witnessed it's formation. As far as I am currently aware that was thought to be ~120kya <300kya based on dating so far. I read another account (can't remember the reference - I will paraphrase) which detailed the star falling to earth, with a great shaking, that set the air on fire, and killed the animals. The mob were very scared to go there for a long time (generations). That certainly throws solely migration across land bridge etc theories on it's head. It is referenced in this paper - (section 2.2, p8). Australian Aboriginal Geomythology: Eyewitness Accounts of Cosmic Impacts?
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...KOWSR_Ya6IdX9M

I referenced another recent discovery of different evidence in Victoria circa that same latter age in the 'Dark Emu' thread. That's the correct place to post any evidence/papers as that was what the thread was about, before you know - girls blouses, noses out of joint, and feathers ruffled. There is even a book/ hypothesis of 'Out of Australia'.







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Old Thursday 27th February 2020, 01:25   #99
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Every culture has there own origin myth: by default they all can't be true. . ..
Really, not even in the everywhen? Are you sure about that?
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Old Thursday 27th February 2020, 01:42   #100
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. There are Aboriginal Nations in the Wolfe Creek area that witnessed it's formation. As far as I am currently aware that was thought to be ~120kya <300kya based on dating so far.
The notion that accounts of events occurring hundreds of thousands of years ago can be accurately transmitted to the present by oral tradition is patently absurd. In "telephone", as anyone who's played it can tell you, simple messages often don't even make the length of a room without being garbled to the point of unintelligibility.
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