Goshawks & Buzzards, UK (1 Viewer)

birderUK007 · Apr 21, 2018

So I was in the Forest of Dean today, hot spot for Goshawks and spotted three birds of prey circling in the thermals. First instinct was they're all Common Buzzards, however upon closer inspection 2 of the 3 were, but the other one didn't look right for one.

It was the same size although the tail feathers were longer and narrower, the wing shape was different and I saw no carpal patches on the underwing when it banked. At the time I was 90% sure it was a Goshawk, however do they share the same thermals as Buzzards? Is this a common practice or are they usually solitary from other birds of prey like this?

KenM · Apr 21, 2018

It does sound like the ''different'' bird (assume similar size) was indeed Goshawk, regarding sharing the same thermal, I can't see that as being ''distinctly'' unusual, although perhaps not often seen, as the latter in my experience is much more secretive, and not often given to being particularly showy.

Apart from perhaps where they are breeding at a greater density in well known areas, resulting in perhaps a higher elevational display, as opposed to low density breeding areas.

Cheers

Andy Adcock · Apr 21, 2018

KenM said:
It does sound like the ''different'' bird (assume similar size) was indeed Goshawk, regarding sharing the same thermal, I can't see that as being ''distinctly'' unusual, although perhaps not often seen, as the latter in my experience is much more secretive, and not often given to being particularly showy.

Apart from perhaps where they are breeding at a greater density in well known areas, resulting in perhaps a higher elevational display, as opposed to low density breeding areas.

Cheers

Sorry Ken, that's rubbish, you can't possibly make any kind of assumption on the details provided...

A

KenM · Apr 21, 2018

andyadcock said:
Sorry Ken, that's rubbish, you can't possibly make any kind of assumption on the details provided...

A

I assume that the OP who can identify CB can also separate alternatively, commoner (Sprawk/Kestrel/Hobby) sized Raps v Corvids?

This being the case he has probably eliminated Corvids from the equation?

Thus we are only really left with raptors of a comparable size, which should eliminate anything appreciably smaller?

Thus in your opinion what ''rubbish'' would you bestow upon (what in your mind) might constitute a plausible alternative?

Andy Adcock · Apr 21, 2018

KenM said:
I assume that the OP who can identify CB can also separate alternatively, commoner (Sprawk/Kestrel/Hobby) sized Raps v Corvids?

This being the case he has probably eliminated Corvids from the equation?

Thus we are only really left with raptors of a comparable size, which should eliminate anything appreciably smaller?

Thus in your opinion what ''rubbish'' would you bestow upon (what in your mind) might constitute a plausible alternative?

We are aware of how difficult some species are to discern from photos, so you're trying to convince yourself and others, without a pic, what about a big, female Spar?

I think that any attempt to ascertain ID, is just a bit daft tbh, best let it go.

A

KenM · Apr 22, 2018

andyadcock said:
We are aware of how difficult some species are to discern from photos, so you're trying to convince yourself and others, without a pic, what about a big, female Spar?

I think that any attempt to ascertain ID, is just a bit daft tbh, best let it go.

A

For some people size is everything! If you've got three "same/almost" raps in the same thermal, even the largest fem.Sprawk would still approximate to being 25% smaller than accompanying CB's

.....this is your "cue" birderUK007 to challenge the suggestion that your "sizing" abilities are questionable? :t:

Got you down as a good candidate for either a local, or national rarities committee member Andy.

Andy Adcock · Apr 22, 2018

KenM said:
For some people size is everything! If you've got three "same/almost" raps in the same thermal, even the largest fem.Sprawk would still approximate to being 25% smaller than accompanying CB's

.....this is your "cue" birderUK007 to challenge the suggestion that your "sizing" abilities are questionable? :t:

Got you down as a good candidate for either a local, or national rarities committee member Andy.

You conjure an image of your own Ken and your still working hard to enhance it. With the greatest of respect, there would be a lot of very unreliable records on the books if it were left to people with standards like yours!

A

tconzemi · Apr 22, 2018

could well be a second calendar year bird circling with 2 adult CB

KenM · Apr 22, 2018

andyadcock said:
You conjure an image of your own Ken and your still working hard to enhance it. With the greatest of respect, there would be a lot of very unreliable records on the books if it were left to people with standards like yours!
A

When someone posts a question they're often looking for some sort of help/confirmation, when one replies, in this case, one attempts to assess and assume a degree of experience for the OP and that was the premiss that I started from.

I suspect that (although I don't know...obviously) this may well have been the first time that he'd seen a possible A.g.? So much so, that he felt that he was 90% sure of the bird in question, indeed his concern appears to be less about the "bird" and more about the circumstances in which he "found it".

Unlike some, I don't think Goshawk ID relates to Rocket Science, particularly where you have a "known" size comparison to directly compare with (something that I for one have rarely had), and "presumed" experience of any possible confusion species.

However this is all speculation, I think the OP needs to "chip-in" and qualify his experiences with "said".

Regarding "image enhancement".....I suspect you're too busy and hard at work on your own, to have time to consider mine.:-O

birderUK007 · Apr 22, 2018

I can say without a doubt that the bird was indeed CB size, that I was clear about in my original post. A Sparrowhawk joined the thermals a short while later and was obviously smaller.

I was more asking about the circumstances at which I found this bird (riding the thermals with 2 other CB), I hoped this forum was a place for me to learn more about a species I have had little contact with, I didn't think I was being "daft" by asking the question. Perhaps I should have placed this in the "Bird Behaviour" forum, I apologise for any confusion I might have made.

As I said in my original post though, was this behaviour something other birders had encountered? Is such a sight unheard of for this species? If so, is Tom's suggestion of a second calendar year bird circling with 2 adult CB the next most likely? I'm just trying to learn more about the habits of this bird in regard to what I saw and what it could also have been, I'm not after a 100% confirmation.

tconzemi · Apr 22, 2018

birderUK007 said:
I'm just trying to learn more about the habits of this bird in regard to what I saw and what it could also have been, I'm not after a 100% confirmation.

I have seen a Goshawk circling with Red Kite and a Honeybuzzard in the same thermic, so yes it is possible

birderUK007 · Apr 22, 2018

tconzemi said:
I have seen a Goshawk circling with Red Kite and a Honeybuzzard in the same thermic, so yes it is possible

Thanks Tom. Was this also during the breeding season or do you suppose this behaviour is possible year round?

tconzemi · Apr 22, 2018

birderUK007 said:
Thanks Tom. Was this also during the breeding season or do you suppose this behaviour is possible year round?

it was a juvenile Gos but I guess it is possible year round

KenM · Apr 22, 2018

FWIW I'd completely forgotten, taken in November a few years back, Gos with Red Kite thermalling together.

Cheers

Biancone · Apr 22, 2018

birderUK007 said:
At the time I was 90% sure it was a Goshawk, however do they share the same thermals as Buzzards? Is this a common practice or are they usually solitary from other birds of prey like this?

In my limited experience with Goshawks I have only once seen an adult Gos in close proximity to soaring Common Buzzards, and that was on one of those rare hot blue summer days (after a cloudy week) when soaring raptors seem to be everywhere. There was no evident interaction and I think the temporary grouping was just chance. On a few occasions I've seen an adult or juvenile Gos come up from ground level to approach another raptor, evidently to encourage it on its way out of the airspace, but that doesn't match the circumstances you describe. Most Goshawks I have seen in flight have been juveniles, solitary or in company with each other, or a solitary adult soaring to considerable height before heading away pretty directly toward a hunting area. So I'd be inclined to agree with your "usually solitary" suggestion. On the other hand, over the past few years I have spent many hundreds of hours on the alert for raptors and had a Goshawk in my sights for just a few minutes in total, so that's not much of a sample size!

FWIW, sounds as if you could well have seen a Goshawk with the buzzards, but you'll never know now!
(PS: crossed with previous two contributions)
Brian

Rotherbirder · Apr 22, 2018

KenM said:
... Unlike some, I don't think Goshawk ID relates to Rocket Science, particularly where you have a "known" size comparison to directly compare with (something that I for one have rarely had), and "presumed" experience of any possible confusion species ...

A little conceited, even for you Ken! What a load of twaddle! Is that why 99% of the Goshawks that you claim, supported by your images, are misidentified Sparrowhawks then? In this instance, there isn't even an image and you are claiming to be able to identify it! I've seen Sparrowhawk, various corvids, Hen Harrier etc misidentified as Gos in the past, just because the observer wanted- and sometimes expected to see Gos! To the OP, err on the side of caution; put it down to experience as 'one that got away', its all that you can realistically do with it.

RB

Andy Adcock · Apr 22, 2018

Rotherbirder said:
A little conceited, even for you Ken! What a load of twaddle! Is that why 99% of the Goshawks that you claim, supported by your images, are misidentified Sparrowhawks then? In this instance, there isn't even an image and you are claiming to be able to identify it! I've seen Sparrowhawk, various corvids, Hen Harrier etc misidentified as Gos in the past, just because the observer wanted- and sometimes expected to see Gos! To the OP, err on the side of caution; put it down to experience as 'one that got away', its all that you can realistically do with it.

RB

Well said, a sensible post

Just to add that it's far from rare to see several species of raptor, circling in the sky in Africa, Asia and the Americas so why not here?

A

KenM · Apr 23, 2018

Rotherbirder said:
A little conceited, even for you Ken!

What a load of twaddle! Is that why 99% of the Goshawks that you claim, supported by your images, are misidentified Sparrowhawks then?

In this instance, there isn't even an image and you are claiming to be able to identify it!

I've seen Sparrowhawk, various corvids, Hen Harrier etc misidentified as Gos in the past, just because the observer wanted- and sometimes expected to see Gos!

To the OP, err on the side of caution; put it down to experience as 'one that got away', its all that you can realistically do with it.

RB

1st statement- You should not confuse conceit...with the blinding obvious, particularly when you have a clear and uninterrupted view of the subject...and especially if it's a large female. Agreed...fleeting views of males surfing tree-tops, now you see it - now you don't can be problematic. (I've had more of those, than you've had hot dinners sunshine). Principally because of the narrow climax woodland corridor that runs behind my abode, and acts as a conduit for species that need to keep a low profile e.g. Hawfinch, Mandarin Duck and Goshawk.

2nd statement- Don't know where you're getting your percentages from, as any images that I've put up where I've either asked the question (mostly) rather than state categorically (not often), are in the public domain.

3rd statement- My response was based on the OP's description of events and his own 90% surety regarding the ID, however his real concern was the ''likelihood'' of raptors enjoying a ''social'' soaring session.

4th statement- I have to assume that the ''generalisation'' that you allude to is just that, and not your own personal difficulties that you may, or may not have, in separating one rap from another?

5th statement- I do believe the OP states that he is not after a 100% confirmation, and is not going to be putting in a formal submission.

Clearly Rother....you appear to have a problem with the salient points on Gos., here are a few images, generally big and bulky!....not unlike the typefaces you elect to use in your communications.

PS. If there are any questions that you feel that you'd like to ask regarding Goshawk Rother....just ask. :t:

Rotherbirder · Apr 23, 2018

KenM said:
1st statement- You should not confuse conceit...with the blinding obvious, particularly when you have a clear and uninterrupted view of the subject...and especially if it's a large female. Agreed...fleeting views of males surfing tree-tops, now you see it - now you don't can be problematic. (I've had more of those, than you've had hot dinners sunshine). Principally because of the narrow climax woodland corridor that runs behind my abode, and acts as a conduit for species that need to keep a low profile e.g. Hawfinch, Mandarin Duck and Goshawk.

2nd statement- Don't know where you're getting your percentages from, as any images that I've put up where I've either asked the question (mostly) rather than state categorically (not often), are in the public domain.

3rd statement- My response was based on the OP's description of events and his own 90% surety regarding the ID, however his real concern was the ''likelihood'' of raptors enjoying a ''social'' soaring session.

4th statement- I have to assume that the ''generalisation'' that you allude to is just that, and not your own personal difficulties that you may, or may not have, in separating one rap from another?

5th statement- I do believe the OP states that he is not after a 100% confirmation, and is not going to be putting in a formal submission.

Clearly Rother....you appear to have a problem with the salient points on Gos., here are a few images, generally big and bulky!....not unlike the typefaces you elect to use in your communications.

PS. If there are any questions that you feel that you'd like to ask regarding Goshawk Rother....just ask. :t:

Nothing wrong with those images Ken but, to be honest, the bird was on a plate wasn't it?! Try your theories on the uplands, in the teeth of a gale and/or driving rain, on birds at 500m plus and see how you fare.

As 'we' seem to be getting rather pointed and personal, at least my spelling is correct (premiss, indeed?) and my punctuation is appropriate for purpose and in the correct place!

RB

KenM · Apr 23, 2018

Rotherbirder said:
Nothing wrong with those images Ken but, to be honest, the bird was on a plate wasn't it?! Try your theories on the uplands, in the teeth of a gale and/or driving rain, on birds at 500m plus and see how you fare.

As 'we' seem to be getting rather pointed and personal, at least my spelling is correct (premiss, indeed?) and my punctuation is appropriate for purpose and in the correct place!

RB

On a plate!!!! Do you realise how many hours I've put in...behind double glazing and radiator with multiple cups of tea in one hand and camera and bins in tother! With wife holding my legs, as I took my life in my hands, hanging out the window taking shots as it drifted by.

Yes I did wonder about the spelling of premiss? and surprisingly found "that" spelling in my very old Penguins English Dictionary, 3rd edition 1980.

My supplied shot with Red Kite when first seen, was perhaps 3-400' up on a Shropshire hillside and circa half mile distant, through my 8x20's against the hill, it looked like a long-tailed BOP which I assumed to be fem.Kestrel.

However my perception of it's size soon altered when it was joined by two Corvids which didn't engage and then drifted down, that's when the Red Kite appeared and they began to thermal.

Interestingly in that shot, the Gos looks short-tailed, yet moments earlier on a downward trajectory the tail appeared longer! I've often wondered whether their UTC's can be retracted and extended, dependant on their required flight mode?

So it goes to show that even moi can make mistakes :eek!:

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