KnockerNorton
Well-known member
erm, I didn't actually.
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Mis-handling of raptors by ringers/banders? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter FalconBirder
- Start date
erm, I didn't actually.
Isurus
Well-known member
They may well be but that doesn't constitute a decision to waive copyright. I'm also not convinced that the various exemptions mentioned apply. Even if they do - its still a courtesy to ask permission. Its certainly just rude to respond in the way that has happened when the issue is raised.
JedHarrison
Member
Just joined this thread and forum.. been reading as aguest for a while... back to the real topic of this thread.. and i am going to post a link to a website, this illustrates that this method of handling birds is not limited to small raptors posing for trophy shots,
notice on this picture the feathers that have been ripped out of the bird whilst handling!
http://blogs.ornithologiki.gr/osa/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/nightjar1.JPG
there does seem to be a valid discussion to be had on the methods of handling these birds. There is no need to handle them in this way. If experienced ringers have legitimate concerns of the practice then lets have a discussion.
I doubt that body feathers should be ripped out if anyone is using best practice in their ringing.
i have concerns whenevr i see bad practice and unnecessary photos of birds like this. I have no objection to record shots of specific birds, or of shots for scientific practices, but to mishandle these birds and cause damage is surely to be condemned?
notice on this picture the feathers that have been ripped out of the bird whilst handling!
http://blogs.ornithologiki.gr/osa/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/nightjar1.JPG
there does seem to be a valid discussion to be had on the methods of handling these birds. There is no need to handle them in this way. If experienced ringers have legitimate concerns of the practice then lets have a discussion.
I doubt that body feathers should be ripped out if anyone is using best practice in their ringing.
i have concerns whenevr i see bad practice and unnecessary photos of birds like this. I have no objection to record shots of specific birds, or of shots for scientific practices, but to mishandle these birds and cause damage is surely to be condemned?
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KnockerNorton
Well-known member
He is, technically, quoting the website, which is perfectly free of copyright.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
Body feathers are often lost. When you're manipulating the bird, either in the net or the hand, they can come out very easily - some birds apparently drop them as an anti-predator response. It's virtually impossible to avoid with thrushes etc., but we're talking around 5-10 feathers here - nothing the bird would miss. But, obviously, you try to avoid it.
Again though, I can see no reason for this pic of the nightjar. Why was it taken? Is it informative or educational in any way? No, it's another trophy pic. "look, I caught a nightjar!" It does nobody any favours and tarnishes ringing...if that photo wasn't taken then the bird possibly wouldn't have been held in that grip at all and there wouldn't be 'photo evidence' appearing as a smear on BirdForum. I do wish ringers would think before they get snap happy and posting this kind of thing. It's getting like bloody twitching.
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JedHarrison
Member
Exactly, it is just a trophy and there is no need for these feathers to be lost. I know birds do lose feathers during ringing. It is difficult to catch pigeons, thrushes, nightjars and process them without the loss of some feathers, but this is just another example of this method of handling that i have found.
The bird in question in this photo looks awkward and struggling, when nightjars can be held in a much more relaxed position with no additional loss of feathers. I have no idea who is holding the bird- just found in whilst looking for nightjar photos on the internet.
My question would be is this likely to damage the bird more than if the phot was not taken? and should ringers object to this practice when they see it?
Is there a better way to get a record shot of this bird (for example if you catch a species at the edge of its range and require a record shot)?
Is there any evidence that this handling method damages the birds. (this photo suggests that the bird was damaged as a result of this type of handling.
I tend to think that this is not good practice, but i also think that experience people can use this technique quite safely.
One other small question for the ringers using pots to weigh birds... How do you hold the bird prior to putting them in the pot? Some ringers that i have seen use pretty much the same method of 'posting' the bird into the pot by holding the wings against the body- especially with the larger birds. Presumablely this does not damage the birds feathers in a similar manner suggested by the original poster, FalconBirder?
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John Morgan
Well-known member
The method of holding by the wing tips at the point immediately above the base of the tail I only use on hirundines. Posting a small bird into a pot can be done using a grip on the legs at the "knee" , but I generally prefer to put a weighing cone into the pot as I described in a previous post. The bird can be delivered using the "ringer's grip" when this is used.
keithmills61
Active member
people have been talking about various handling techniques on this thread, but i seriuosly question the need to ring birds at all? we know enough about most species for the need to ring to be unnessessary! certainly some species particularly the reintroduction ones could possably benefit by it. but most birds regularly "rung" in the uk are done by hobby ringers who produce limited or no new statistics of any worth to justify the wholesale trapping of wild birds! i am a falconer and if i caught a single raptor i would face at least a very large fine, at worst a 5yr jail sentence and a ban from keeping birds for 5yrs, which is fair enough, but these ringers are licensed to trap birds legally for what? an incredibly low return rate on birds rung, then the few returns they get tell them exactlly what? that swallows migrate to africa? nothing that we didnt know allready. it should be stopped unless there is a really credable concervation reason for it.
vermivoracelata
Master Bander
I think you will find all pictures are quotes as being copyright of myself or AuBO.
The point that I was making was that in this 'discussion' as a result of disagreeing with the original poster, they have come out and posted pictures of me in personal criticism. Which doesn't really help the situation.
I'm still waiting to hear of these alternative handling methods....
vermivoracelata
Master Bander
You might want to check previous threads on this forum, especially from Mark Grantham of the BTO who never ceases to justify the scientific reasoning behind the ringing scheme and the input of 'hobby' ringers. Nice one Mark!
Jane Turner
Well-known member
keithmills61; said:
Keith, did you read my reply to you the last time you posted this? Or the other papers I also posted for your enlightenment?
http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1046907&postcount=112
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joannec
Well-known member
Link doesn't work.
JedHarrison
Member
ringing is incredibly useful, informative and necessary. The 'hobby' ringers contribute an immense amount of information to science and the information posted by Jane, mark grantham and poecile etc in the recent and not-so-recent past should give you an idea of why it is important. Even if you do not agree with it, monitoring bird populations is very, very useful and ringing is a great way to do this -- it is not all about recoveries- . If you are still in doubt, have a check on the BTO website (If you are in the uk) and find out when there is the next ringing demonstration, go along and ask those running it all the questions that you want.
What drew me to this thread was that we might have a discussion about the handling techniques used whilst ringing. Those who have legitimate concerns shoud be able to ask the questions... i want to check that i am using best practice in my ringing and i have been shown the technique that Falconbirder has shown and i had concerns about it from the start. i never use the technique preferring to use a standard leg hold whilst keeping the wings closed with a hand- if i were to take a record photo. - no one handed trophy shots.
There are also many books showing the appropriate method of showing the underside /measuring a raptors wing and i have never seen it illustrated with the holding of 1 or 2 primaries - it is always at the carpel joint. and the bird is always shown to be restrained by a leg hold (without leather gloves). Which method do the ringers prefer? and which methods do the rest of the ringers have doubts about.
the question remains that there are bad ways of doing things and good ways, what do people think of the practices shown in this thread? I for one would like to know a general consensus if i see these things happening that i can have an informed opinion about whether to say something or not.or what methods to recommend instead.
What drew me to this thread was that we might have a discussion about the handling techniques used whilst ringing. Those who have legitimate concerns shoud be able to ask the questions... i want to check that i am using best practice in my ringing and i have been shown the technique that Falconbirder has shown and i had concerns about it from the start. i never use the technique preferring to use a standard leg hold whilst keeping the wings closed with a hand- if i were to take a record photo. - no one handed trophy shots.
There are also many books showing the appropriate method of showing the underside /measuring a raptors wing and i have never seen it illustrated with the holding of 1 or 2 primaries - it is always at the carpel joint. and the bird is always shown to be restrained by a leg hold (without leather gloves). Which method do the ringers prefer? and which methods do the rest of the ringers have doubts about.
the question remains that there are bad ways of doing things and good ways, what do people think of the practices shown in this thread? I for one would like to know a general consensus if i see these things happening that i can have an informed opinion about whether to say something or not.or what methods to recommend instead.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
joannechattaway; said:
I've fixed it. I hope!
Larry Lade
Moderator
Jane, the URL you gave is working now!
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
And I think you'll find that his quotes of unedited pictures comes under the 'fair use' clauses in most countries' copyright laws.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
but the key point that nobody has addressed yet, is whether the methods being shown here are indeed 'bad'. They may well be, but nobody has provided any evidence of damage. It is all assumed. And I for one think it is far from self-explanatory. It might *look* uncomfortable, dangerous or whatever, but it may not be outside of acceptable ringing limits. Being put in a ringing cone looks uncomfortable to me, but I don't think it's unacceptbale.
ESTEBANNIC
Well-known member
Copy/Paste from last thread on impacts of ringing....at least take your time to go through the thread properly.....zzzzzzzz yawn
John Cantelo
Well-known member
Clearly Keith doesn't seem to recognise a distinction between trapping and releasing birds and trapping but keeping them. I'm sure that it never happens these days, but in the past irresponsible falconers were a real threat to birds like peregrines. In contrast I can't recall a single case of ringers illegally taking their birds home with them! I don't think, either, that he's grasped the internal logic of his argument: to learn anything from few returns necessitates a large number of birds being trapped & rung. There's also the inherent assumption in the in trapping and ringing birds we're dealing with a stable unchanging situation; we know everything so we no longer need to do it . The truth is, of course, that not only do we not know everything, but also that the 'everything' we need to know is in a state of flux and change.
Given Keith's example of swallow, I'm sure that a better informed ringer will be able to quote chapter and verse on something I vaguely recall. That is where ringing returns have identified major roost sites in Africa for migrant swallows. This has allowed conservation measures to be put in place,
John
Actually the second picture shows a hybrid between a Common Buzzard and a Rough-legged Buzzard, and belongs to a series of pictures documenting the hybridisation between these two species for the second time ever, so I would say that it is a bit more than just a 'trophy shot'...
