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Interview with the new head of Zeiss Sports Optics

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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 17:14   #26
Troubador
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CJ

Vespo's screen shot is more or less identical to the page in the 2018-19 Nature Catalogue which has not yet been put onto the Download Centre of either the Zeiss UK or Zeiss Germany websites. I am sure the HT glass is in the prisms as this is the most obvious place to put it but Zeiss personnel at Bird Fair would not confirm which components are involved.

BTW CJ could you explain what you mean by green ham? You see green, fair enough, I don't, but where does the ham come into it?

Lee

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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 17:19   #27
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Strange that the SF has HT glass but no better transmission than the FL's, with no HT glass.
James,

As far as I could tell when I compared them the 8x42mm HTs are optically identical to the 8x42mm FLs except for HT glass, slightly improved coatings and some additional baffling. Compared to the FL/HTs the SFs have one more lens group in the eyepiece and one less in the objective, so they have the same sixteen glass to air surfaces. The lower transmission of the S-P prisms is probably the only reason SF light transmission is no better than FL and a little lower than HT.

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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 17:45   #28
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CJ

Vespo's screen shot is more or less identical to the page in the 2018-19 Nature Catalogue which has not yet been put onto the Download Centre of either the Zeiss UK or Zeiss Germany websites. I am sure the HT glass is in the prisms as this is the most obvious place to put it but Zeiss personnel at Bird Fair would not confirm which components are involved.

BTW CJ could you explain what you mean by green ham? You see green, fair enough, I don't, but where does the ham come into it?

Lee
Lee,

I just checked the Australian Zeiss website too, and it is no help in clarifying matters - there is no mention of any HT glass, and they mention "multiple" fluoride lenses (meaning more than 1 but we really don't know how many).

As far as the "green ham" goes - it's more 'ham' than 'green' - it's a kind of very slight greyish greenish ham colour. I don't know if that's a common saying in the world but a kind of slight 'old ham' colour is a pretty good approximation. It's just on the warm side of the ledger.

I think the old HT models are the most colour neutral bins I have ever seen - but I thought they lacked micro contrast which made the view a bit cartoonish. I'm still waiting for that perfect bin .... :)



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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 18:10   #29
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Actually, I don't think that's the case as the extra length of the A-K prisms would make for a faster focal ratio which would increase aberrations (CA, etc) if the physical length of the binocular stayed the same. It would also muck up the Centre of Mass and reduce the effect of the touted ergonomics.
Agree on the balance issue, but as the glass path of an A-K prism is 5,2 times the aperture as against 4,62 for S-P (quoting Holger Merlitz here), the former could get away with a slightly longer focal length in the same housing, and consequently a "slower" focal ratio.
The glass path in the prisms is an integral part of the design. Without the prisms the objectives of the best corrected binoculars would exhibit significant spherical and chromatic aberration.

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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 18:38   #30
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Originally Posted by Tringa45 View Post
Agree on the balance issue, but as the glass path of an A-K prism is 5,2 times the aperture as against 4,62 for S-P (quoting Holger Merlitz here), the former could get away with a slightly longer focal length in the same housing, and consequently a "slower" focal ratio.
The glass path in the prisms is an integral part of the design. Without the prisms the objectives of the best corrected binoculars would exhibit significant spherical and chromatic aberration.

John
As far as I can tell you've just effectively agreed with everything I said. As well as the slightly longer optical path through the A-K prisms, note they are also physically much longer which would require stronger refractive lenses throughout the optical train or again suffer greater aberrations if the physical length of the bin remained the same - which it would have to, what with it already being a very long bin. All in all A-K's are not an option for the SF.



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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 19:16   #31
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Lee,

I just checked the Australian Zeiss website too, and it is no help in clarifying matters - there is no mention of any HT glass, and they mention "multiple" fluoride lenses (meaning more than 1 but we really don't know how many).

As far as the "green ham" goes - it's more 'ham' than 'green' - it's a kind of very slight greyish greenish ham colour. I don't know if that's a common saying in the world but a kind of slight 'old ham' colour is a pretty good approximation. It's just on the warm side of the ledger.

Chosun
CJ
I have never heard anyone liken any colour of anything to ham in any way.

Over here ham means cured pork of a particular cut and the salt makes it a deep red colour which kind of sounds weird when mixed with green as you descibe it. When cooked our ham/salt-cured pork goes grey but if cooked quickly can have brown almost-burned marks on it. I suppose if ham went bad and invaded with bacteria it might go green or maybe green with mould but surely this doesn't happen often enough to become a by-word for a particular shade of whatever it is you are trying to describe. Boiled ham is a kind of gentle pink colour but would need some serious contamination of some kind to go green.

All of this is very appetising but doesn't bear any resemblence to the view through any optical view I have ever seen.

Can you tell I am struggling to understand any aspect of your green-ham comparison?

Lee
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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 19:41   #32
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CJ
I have never heard anyone liken any colour of anything to ham in any way.

Over here ham means cured pork of a particular cut and the salt makes it a deep red colour which kind of sounds weird when mixed with green as you descibe it. When cooked our ham/salt-cured pork goes grey but if cooked quickly can have brown almost-burned marks on it. I suppose if ham went bad and invaded with bacteria it might go green or maybe green with mould but surely this doesn't happen often enough to become a by-word for a particular shade of whatever it is you are trying to describe. Boiled ham is a kind of gentle pink colour but would need some serious contamination of some kind to go green.

All of this is very appetising but doesn't bear any resemblence to the view through any optical view I have ever seen.

Can you tell I am struggling to understand any aspect of your green-ham comparison?

Lee
LOL !

I'm quite a fan of fresh shaved leg ham off the bone - it's a very very light pinkish colour. If it was much older (but not yet moldy) it would be a more greyish colour. That's what I see - very very slight light pinkish grey with a hint of greenish. Some others see it too. It fits perfectly with what I see of the transmission chart.

Lol! fond memories of childhood - one of our favourite meals when mum was late home from work, was hot chips rolled up in fresh ham - yum ! Surely that translates internationally !!



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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 19:51   #33
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I had the 8x42 ht and I loved the color balance of that bin. but I have to say the Swarovski 8x56 slc I just got last week might be as good. Wish I still had the Zeiss to compare.
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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 19:59   #34
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If someone on here has both the 8x42 ht and the 8x56 slc ( newest model) let me know what you think about color balance. Are the whites as white in the slc? I am just going from memory but I would like to know.
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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 20:28   #35
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Thanks Vespo,

That's interesting. If that is correct (and I'm still not discounting a mix-up) , it could be as little as 1 HT lens in the eyepiece ....

The colour cast I see in the SF is very subtle, yet it is there (I should fess up that I probably have supernatural white balance detection powers due to previous work requiring high level scrutiny, and so it wouldn't surprise me if others don't see it to the same degree or even at all). I would say that the T* coatings of the SF are likely of a different Flava to the HT's too.

Chosun
Any HT glass would be in the prisms.

The SF might have been optimized for daylight (and birding) in the first place, but now it's also replacing the HT in the Hunting catalog...
HT glass might have been added later, as it mostly would increase transmission in the blue spectrum and not the 92% figure.
But it's only a speculation...

Did you try the HT and SF side by side in natural light outdoors?
The grey version?
Maybe you should try a later sample...
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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 20:29   #36
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
As far as I can tell you've just effectively agreed with everything I said. As well as the slightly longer optical path through the A-K prisms, note they are also physically much longer which would require stronger refractive lenses throughout the optical train or again suffer greater aberrations if the physical length of the bin remained the same - which it would have to, what with it already being a very long bin. All in all A-K's are not an option for the SF.
Chosun
Sorry, I just suffered a misfire - pre-ignition!
In fact, the additional lenth of the A-K would necessitate a larger prism aperture, even longer glass path and additional weight.

John
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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 22:08   #37
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Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
Any HT glass would be in the prisms.

The SF might have been optimized for daylight (and birding) in the first place, but now it's also replacing the HT in the Hunting catalog...
HT glass might have been added later, as it mostly would increase transmission in the blue spectrum and not the 92% figure.
But it's only a speculation...

Did you try the HT and SF side by side in natural light outdoors?
The grey version?
Maybe you should try a later sample...
Not necessarily - sure you probably get the best HT bang for the buck in the prisms, but the HT glass range covers the full gamut - flints, crowns, various grades suitable for prisms - there's 12 different products last time I looked at the Schott catalogue. They could go anywhere or nearly everywhere (I'm not sure if there is what would be a HT grade of fluorite these days or if it is classified that way - pesky definitions, terminology, and language again :)
My guess would be an eyepiece lens, but it's just a guess.

The SF was definitely 'tuned' for daylight birding in the kind of slight warm side colour cast way that Leica's and Steiner's are - great for pulling deer or lbj's out of fall foliage or savanna grassland of an afternoon, but definitely not Swaro crystalline, not so good for beautiful blue Superb, and Splendid Fairy Wrens, and not my cup of tea either.

I was forever driven to find colour neutrality perfection after seeing a once in a lifetime red rainbow (due to outback dust storms) - all different shades of reds, oranges, peaches, and gold, with the thinnest sliver of soft aqua teal in the middle - luckily my near neutral bins showed an excellent representation of what I was seeing with the naked eye.

That's an interesting suggestion that HT glass has been slipped in recently on the sly. If you are going to do it properly you really need to reindex the coatings as well. It's not like Zeiss to miss a chance to trumpet, and you would definitely notice it ....

I've tried the Grey version previously, and spent a reasonably longer amount of time with the black version too. I didn't notice any change in colour cast between the two. The difference in colour cast between the SF's and the HT's was noticeable (along with better microcontrast for the SF, and better 'clarity' for the HT).

The last session I had with them was in a pretty good range of natural light outside with a mixed natural landscape and lots of colourful man made signs and even a convenient big white flagpole. The highlight was the hours watching a Nankeen Kestrel who had an unusual interest in perching on a red brick outbuilding - I was later to learn why when I saw him catch a mouse and scoff it down! :)



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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 00:06   #38
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
As far as I can tell you've just effectively agreed with everything I said. As well as the slightly longer optical path through the A-K prisms, note they are also physically much longer which would require stronger refractive lenses throughout the optical train or again suffer greater aberrations if the physical length of the bin remained the same - which it would have to, what with it already being a very long bin. All in all A-K's are not an option for the SF.



Chosun
Chosun:

The SF was designed from the ground up for a rear weighted bias to offer
its excellent balance and handling.

This is mentioned in the original SF posts from a few years back, Lee interviewed Gerald Dobler, in Feb. 2015, and this binocular was very new
for Zeiss with the addition of the flat field ocular set and much more.

I don't see a reason to be concerned about AK prisms and the kind of
HT glass used in the Zeiss SF binocular.

Zeiss does not need to tell the world all about their secrets.

You can just speculate all you want, but the SF is just fine the way it is.

Jerry
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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 06:39   #39
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post

That's what I see - very very slight light pinkish grey with a hint of greenish. Some others see it too. It fits perfectly with what I see of the transmission chart.

Chosun
CJ

LOL indeed. This is not what others have reported at all. There has been mentioned a 'greenish', or 'yellow-greenish' cast, and most on here don't see either. Nobody has reported a pinkish-grey-green cast so your unique perception is a puzzle.

Prof Gijs van Ginkel who has experience of transmission testing and has had his work verified by the top three brands has also stated more than once that his transmission curve does not support the idea of a colour cast in SF but of course transmission curves don't take into account the eye-brain system of the observer.

I certainly wouldn't bother taking SFs to the Western Isles of Scotland or Islay where we will be heading in a few weeks if they turned those pristine sea-shell-sand beaches and indeed, everything observed through them, into the colour of old mouldy, bacteria-ridden boiled ham to my eyes.

I have ample evidence at home of how colour perception can differ as Troubadoris and me often disagree as to whether a fabric or a paint etc is blue or green......

Lee
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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 10:46   #40
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I have ample evidence at home of how colour perception can differ as Troubadoris and me often disagree as to whether a fabric or a paint etc is blue or green......
Perhaps Troubadoris has a fourth colour receptor, and Chosun too?

John
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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 11:35   #41
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I find that my head spins a bit (more) in trying to read this thread so excuse me if some of what follows is said above somewhere.

1. It is well known that the human female sees more color gradations than the male on average. E.g.:

Psychology Today, 2015. [Link] "...This sensitivity was most evident in the middle of the color spectrum. With hues that were mainly yellow or green, women were able to distinguish tiny differences between colors that looked identical to men..."

This is cited a lot on the internet: Research at Newcastle University ?~2010 showed that the average human can perceive 1 million different colors, but a small percentage of women may see 100 times this!

2. Chosun Juan is of that spoilt sex. It seems that many on the forum are not aware of this.

3. For Chosun: You sometimes comment on HTs (you should know what that means) and "bambis". What about piglets? ;-)
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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 11:36   #42
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Perhaps Troubadoris has a fourth colour receptor, and Chosun too?

John
You might be right there John.

If Troubadoris starts saying things like 'hmm, those curtains are a nice kind of greeny-hammy colour' then I am in big trouble.....

Lee
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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 13:11   #43
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Hi John,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tringa45 View Post
Perhaps Troubadoris has a fourth colour receptor, and Chosun too?
I just looked up "Tetrachromacy" in Wikipedia, and couldn't make much sense of it ... is there an established view on how frequent this actually is, and how it works physiologically?

I rarely agree with my girlfriend on colour descriptions either, and that's independend of whether we're using different optics or the naked eye.

Regards,

Henning
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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 13:58   #44
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Hi Henning,

Agree, there's a lot of "fachchinesisch" on the English Wikipedia site, but the German site suggests that up to 12% of women have an orange or yellow receptor between the green and red.

John
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Old Tuesday 28th August 2018, 05:59   #45
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Hauksen, Tringa,

I'm sure you are aware of colour blindness and how it's more prevalent in men. These are genetic mutation that significantly alter the function of one or more of the three photo receptors for the short, medium and long wavelengths, or blue, green, red if you prefer. In recent years dozens of other mutations have been discovered, of which the most common results in a single amino acid change in the pigment of the L (red) receptor and shifts the sensitivity spectrum by a few nanometres. The result is a small difference in red/green discrimination. About 45% of men have one version and 55% the other. The interesting thing here is that the gene for the receptor is carried on the X chromosome. Men have an X and a Y chromosome, meaning they will only have one version or the other. Women have two X chromosomes so have two copies of the gene. They can have two copies of one version, two copies of the other or one copy of each. Technically with a blue, green and two different copies of the red they are tetrachromats. At least some studies have shown that this group have the highest levels of colour discrimination. A similar, but less comon variant also occurs with the green receptor, which is also carried on the X chromosome which means it's possible for a woman to have 5 colour receptors, but I've not seen any corresponding performance data. We now know there is considerably more variation in receptor function at the molecular level than was once thought.

David

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Old Tuesday 28th August 2018, 10:10   #46
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Hi David,

Quote:
Originally Posted by typo View Post
We now know there is considerably more variation in receptor function at the molecular level than was once thought.
Thanks a lot for the great summary! The thing I'm having difficulties figuring out: How does the eye get from a reflector with a shifted sensitivity peak to the neural representation of a fourth colour? The English Wikipedia article mentions that the variant receptors are usually "wired" to the same old three colour "channels", which logically would result in a deterioration of colour view as the two different receptor types connected to the same colour would create a less well-defined sensitivity peak.

Regards,

Henning
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Old Tuesday 28th August 2018, 13:41   #47
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According to In Focus Herts someone at Zeiss has said that we should get an 8x32 SF in time for Birdfair next year.Would be nice to have that confirmed - I'd like to have some lighter bins than my 8x42's and really don't want to have to switch to Swarovski!
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Old Tuesday 28th August 2018, 13:54   #48
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Hmmm. I quizzed a few Zeiss folks about this and nobody was prepared to comment, but then, I am not a dealer so maybe In Focus got the inside info. I don't think there is any point in trying to get more info out of Zeiss about this at the moment because they will probably want to keep their competitor's guessing. But next spring might be a better time to give them a poke and see what they say.

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Old Tuesday 28th August 2018, 14:54   #49
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Hi David,



Thanks a lot for the great summary! The thing I'm having difficulties figuring out: How does the eye get from a reflector with a shifted sensitivity peak to the neural representation of a fourth colour? The English Wikipedia article mentions that the variant receptors are usually "wired" to the same old three colour "channels", which logically would result in a deterioration of colour view as the two different receptor types connected to the same colour would create a less well-defined sensitivity peak.

Regards,

Henning
You might imagine that the tree colours would be transmitted as separate pathways but nothing is that simple when it comes to neurology. The three signals are first processesed into red/green and blue yellow/ratios in the retina then and goes through several complex intermediate stages on it's way to the visual cortex. I really can't pretend to understand much of it. I've not seen any explaination of how this may differ with tetrachromics, but I'm guessing it is the heterogeneity of the red receptor sensitivity, particularly in the yellow/orange part of the spectum, that refines those red/green and blue yellow ratios to give more precise colour discrimination. But really, your guess is as good as mine.

David
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Old Tuesday 28th August 2018, 15:05   #50
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Hauksen, Tringa,

I'm sure you are aware of colour blindness and how it's more prevalent in men. These are genetic mutation that significantly alter the function of one or more of the three photo receptors for the short, medium and long wavelengths, or blue, green, red if you prefer. In recent years dozens of other mutations have been discovered, of which the most common results in a single amino acid change in the pigment of the L (red) receptor and shifts the sensitivity spectrum by a few nanometres. The result is a small difference in red/green discrimination. About 45% of men have one version and 55% the other. The interesting thing here is that the gene for the receptor is carried on the X chromosome. Men have an X and a Y chromosome, meaning they will only have one version or the other. Women have two X chromosomes so have two copies of the gene. They can have two copies of one version, two copies of the other or one copy of each. Technically with a blue, green and two different copies of the red they are tetrachromats. At least some studies have shown that this group have the highest levels of colour discrimination. A similar, but less comon variant also occurs with the green receptor, which is also carried on the X chromosome which means it's possible for a woman to have 5 colour receptors, but I've not seen any corresponding performance data. We now know there is considerably more variation in receptor function at the molecular level than was once thought.

David
Thanks for the nice summary David

Perhaps I should have charged more for my work!



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