Amur or Blyth's Paradise Flycatcher? Singapore, Sept 2019 (1 Viewer)

Is this an Amur or Blyth's Paradise Flycatcher? I'm not sure if the first photo shows a blackish throat from the grey breast or because the throat is in shadow making in look black thus pointing to an Amur. Both photos are of the same bird.
Help much appreciated!

The second image isn't much use but the first one, if adjusted for shadow, seems to show contrast between the flat black crown and the rest of the head, but not really any between throat and breast, suggesting Blyth's, but I'm not 100% sure. The colour of the vent, white, doesn't fit Blyth's - I read a comment from Phil Round recently, suggesting Amur may have a rufous vent but not the other way round.

Interestingly, the primary coverts on this bird appear black, supposedly a feature of Japanese, but the upperparts are much too coppery.

Thanks for your help, Andy!
I pushed the brightness on the photo and I believe you were right that there was contrast between the crown and the head but not much between the throat and breast. I'm not really sure what the colour of the vent is. There is a yellow cast but could be an artifact.
Just curious - if the vent is really white in this case, what would be the over-riding feature for an ID? The throat/crown contrast or the vent?

Before opening the attachments, my gut reaction to the thumbnails was that it was a Japanese PF, based on the upperpart tone. Looking more closely it does seem to be paler than typical Japanese, but it also doesn't seem quite as bright as I expect with Amur (I don't have enough experience of Blyth's to comment). The breast seems pretty dark to me, contrasting strongly with the white belly. Seeing Andy's comment about the primary coverts, I wonder whether it may actually be a relatively pale female Japanese.

I'm not very good with Paradise-flycatcher ID though, so any other opinions on this bird would be very welcome.

Thanks for your input, John.

First of all, I 'm not sure anyone other than a small handful of birders is at ease with these. They can be really tough, especially in 1st-winter plumage. The contrast between the throat and breast needed to separate Amur from Blyth's can be hard to see - sometimes it's apparent in one image but not in another.

Your suggestion of Japanese is an intriguing one. Immature/female Japanese does seem to show a contrast between the black crown and the rest of the head, plus the aforementioned black primary coverts. However, the colour of the upperparts does seem to be a deeper, richer brown, as in this example:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/53435640@N05/31100428557

This bird has a blue eyering - when does this develop, I wonder?

I learned about the primary coverts feature from this post from Dave Gandy's excellent blog, now sadly discontinued. This bird was originally identified as Amur. It does seem to be a slightly lighter shade of brown but still not as light as the OP bird. It doesn't have a blue eyering and there's a lot of yellow on the bill-base, so it must be a younger bird than the first example.

http://bangkokcitybirding.blogspot.com/2016/05/hell-in-paradise.html

Another feature of Japanese people mention is that there's often an upside-down-U-shaped incursion from the belly into the breast, although this is not particularly apparent in Dave's bird and certainly not in the OP bird.

So to conclude, I don't think the OP bird is Japanese but I'm not 100% sure. Grahame, can you take a look?

Yes was thinking it must be a 1st-w Japanese but had the same concerns so I thought I'd pass the images to PDR for expert opinion.

His reply confirming Japanese..

Looks like a first-winter Japanese P-f based on sooty primary coverts, overall darkness of, and lack contrast in, throat and breast. I see what you mean about the upperparts, but within the lomits of tolerance, I think, and not very rufous. Shortish bill indicative of either Japanese or incei

Phil

Grahame

Andy, John & Grahame, thanks for taking the time to look into this!

I'm going to share this interesting discussion with the local birding community.

This was photographed the day before (28/09/19) at the same location, what do you reckon?

TWM said:

This was photographed the day before (28/09/19) at the same location, what do you reckon?

Click to expand...

No image.

There are quite a few going through at the moment.

An out of focus front view

Amur IMO. You can see the clear contrast between throat and breast, and the primary coverts are not solid black, but with brown fringes.

As an example of how difficult these birds can be, watch this short video from Singapore. The bird appears at first to have a darker crown contrasting with greyer face and throat, suggesting Blyth's. Then it abruptly turns round to face us and you can clearly see the contrast between throat and breast, making it an Amur. It must be a property of their plumage.

https://www.facebook.com/ramesh.birding.1/videos/497693201072129/

And what do you make of this one?

https://www.facebook.com/meilin.kho...56344/10218015752537358/?type=3&theater&ifg=1