Pentax DCF-HS? (1 Viewer)

I am just curious as to whether or not anyone else has tried this model yet. It is a very, modestly priced roof prism recently entered into the market. I haven't really looked around but have seen them for as low as $190. One would think that at $190 that they must be less than desirable....similar to other lower priced roofs on the market.

Quite the contrary. I ended up walking out with a pair of the 10xs this afternoon. Very respectable optics especially for the price.

Some highlights:

36 mm objective sizes on both models

Phase coated and fully multicoated

Water resistant JIS-4

24 ounce weight

9 foot close focus distance

Other than the lack of complete waterproofness, nitrogen purging, etc... the only real drawback is a relatively narrow field of view...6.5 on the 8x and 5.5 on the 10x.....342 ft and 288 ft respectively. However, the image provided is exceptionally sharp with reasonably good contrast. I would estimate that a good 65-75% of the field is flat with only moderate distortion along the edges.

Aiding the appeal of the image is an exceptionally smooth focus knob. Comparing it directly with my Nikon 8x42 HG I find it very similar. The HS actually is a bit stiffer but only just noticeably so. This seems ideal for my personal tastes as the image definitely "snaps" into focus.

I have only recently purchased them so I will leave any further comments for the future. However, I thought I might mention my experiences so far in the hope that some of the rest of you folks might try them the next time you visit the optics counter. I found them to offer a noticeably sharper image with a better focus than the Nikon Sporters and actually very comparable to the Monarchs with only a slightly dimmer view.

I would be interested in hearing others commments.

It's difficult to know what level of quality Pentax holds today. They have some binoculars who are very good but other who are quite bad. The Papilio 6,5 and 8,5x21 are reviewed to be very good. The former PCF V and PCF WP models were very good but the new PCF WP II are much worse than their predecessors. The DCF MP serie are not either very impressive.

One unusual thing with the DCF HS is that the eye relief is longer on the 10x power model than the 8x model, This is really in opposite to the normal case. I would be interested in the 8x model of DCF HS if the ER wouldn't too short.

Patric

Patric,

Thank you for the comments. I think the eye relief is one of the reasons I find the 10x HS so comfortable. Because of my facial dimensions I seem to lean towards models that offer long eye relief...the HS, Nikon HG, Pentax XP, etc... If I remember correctly the eye relief on the 8x model was 16 mm. Is that too short for your preference? In all honesty, I did not take a look through the 8x as I was in the market for a 10x at the time. Maybe I should have.

In addition, the 10x HS has a very large ocular lens diameter. Slightly smaller than the 8x42 HG but significantly larger than the diameter of the XP's. This always give me more of a feeling of "stepping into" the view rather than just looking at it from behind the eye piece. I am assuming this is related to eye relief and yet I do not get this impression when looking through the XPs (20 mm eye relief) with their much narrower diameter ocular lens.

I agree with the comment about Pentax's inconsistancy in terms of quality across their models. The HRII are just horrible in my opinion which is why I was somewhat surprised by the view and design of the HS considering the price.

Frank,

In the most cases 16mm is on the short side for eyeglasses for me. According to my experiences it needs to be at least 17mm (and rather more) to be complete satisfactory.

But the stated ER has always to be taken "with a pinch of salt", the same stated ER can in different binoculars be various in practice. In some binoculars the effective ER is significantly decreased because of the ocular lens is quite deeply recessed. One example is Pentax 10x50 PCF WP (II) with stated ER of 20mm, but the ocular lens is quite small (17-18mm) and is quite much recessed, so the effective ER is only 14mm. These don't work satisfactory for me with eyeglasses.
The 16x60 PCF WP has also stated 20mm ER but has 17mm effective ER, because of smaller apparent FOV and that the ocular lens isn't so much recessed as in the 10x50 model. These works very well with eyeglasses.

Interesting that the 10x HS has large ocular lens, this gives as you say a comfortable "open" view. A very nice binocular in this respect is Nikon Sporter 8x36, which have a larger ocular lens than the 8x42 Monarch and offer complete satisfactory view with eyeglasses, actually they offer a feeling recalling Swarovski SLC 7x42, you can look around the FOV to the edges with eyeglasses without shadowing of the image.

Regards, Patric

I've been meaning to write up this bin for a while and have not succeeded so here are some random notes. I'll add more as I think them up.

I picked up a pair (in camo) from buydig.com for $99 shipped. You can still get them in black for $121.

http://www.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=PKB8X36DCFHSB

I like them. Quite a lot.

They're quite sharp but not top end sharp. I'm getting spoiled by my ED bins but with these I found they were just a little less sharp the Pentax WP 8x32 which is a bit less sharp than the Pentax SP. But they're sharper

The colors were a bit more vibrant than the WP with a "redder" (or perhaps less bluish bias) look. I suspect the coatings are more "recent" in design than the WP. The color is more balanced (redder) than other bins in this same price class (e.g. Vortex Diamondback and the Bushnell Excursion).

The contrast is good.

The AFOV is sharp across almost edge to edge which is a bit of a change for this price range bin. It does have a narrower FOV (6.5 degrees) and narrow AFOV (approximate: 52 degrees; accurate: 42.3 degrees) than most.

The HS deals with stray/off-axis light better than any under $200 bin I've used (and better than some bins costing more than $200). It's a joy to use in "difficult light" like sunny autumn day with the sun low in the sky. I think this is related to the narrow FOV (see below).

Eye relief is good enough. Just about. It's claimed to be 16mm and it works for me with eyeglasses but it seems to be only just enough. The view also seems to "brownout" (vignette?) around the edges (not like a kidney bean blackout) for some eye placements.

Ergonomically it's a very comfortable bin. The case design (like quite a few Pentax enclosure designs) looks like it should be uncomfortable but actually works very well. The rubber has armor is nicely curved. My fingers fall in the right places and where they fall against the bridge the curve places them nicely (without rubbing against a sharp edge. The bin is easy to carry one handed. The thumb indents are nice (and serve to keep the hands in the right place. Clearly someone really thought about this.

It comes with a short wide nylon strap (neck carry but also works well for an over the shoulder purse carry). It's a lot better made than most "Made in China" strap. Obviously Pentax have their standards to enforce rather than taking the lowest common denominator. The case is a typical tight fitting Pentax nylon case which is designed to have bin straps outside the case for carrying.

It is made in China. This is something I didn't realize until the second day I had the bins and decide to put the strap on. I flipped the bin upside down and noticed the Pentax nameplate with "Made in China" on it. How very odd. Up to that point I'd though it was a Japanese bin. It felt like a Japanese made Pentax. Build quality looked like a Japanese made Pentax. I was impressed by the label too. Unlike a lot of bin makers who seem to want to hide the bins origin by just adding a small transparent stick-on label with "China" or "Made in China" if forced to by local law. Pentax seem to be proud to have "Made in China" on their nameplate. Good for them. Clearly they're maintaining the "Pentax standard" regardless of where the bin is made.

Weighs 23oz is heavier than quite a few "smaller bins" but seems lighter than that.

Another interesting point is its optical design: it's a very simple bin

orbitaljump said:

Here we have the Pentax DCF HS 8x36....

Objective Lens: 2 elements in 1 group;
Eyepiece Lens: 3 elements in 2 groups

http://www.opticsplanet.net/62600.html

Click to expand...

That's a very simple optical design. Most "good" bins have three or more elements in the objective and four (or, like the Pentax SP or ED, perhaps five) elements in the eyepiece. Yet the bin performs remarkably well.

One thing that struck me about the current Pentax HS recently is the exterior of the "objective lens" is flat.

Initially I though they had a fixed flat plate and were moving the objective lens inside the barrel rather like the Papilio. You can see the moving focusing element that's the "full width" of the barrel but some light bouncing seems to indicate this external element is plano-convex on the "inside".

The quote above that "Objective Lens: 2 elements in 1 group" could be that arrangement or a doublet behind a flat plate. I'd like someone else to check that but looking at it again today I think there is a plano-convex outer lens and an

It would make the bin work with very few elements. And in this case it does work rather well. Though one might have thought it would be JIS 6 (waterproof) rather than JIS 4 (weatherproof) with so few moving parts.

Pentax with the HS reduced the number of elements: I rather wonder if they went to 3 with one of them being aspherical (rather than going back to a plain Kelner or reversed Kelner design). The view has some odd edge darkening that is rather like the SP when you don't get the exit pupil aligned quite right. It also has a very flat AFOV (that is only about 50-odd degrees). Perhaps it's cheaper for them to make a reversed Kelner with an aspherical lens and so reduce the lens count in the EP along with coating, assembly and testing costs but still get a flat AFOV and reduce aberrations. This would imply they could make some aspherical lenses relatively inexpensively. It's interesting speculation especially if it's true but the problem is they don't tout it as having an aspherical lens in heir marketing literature which I expect they would.

The Pentax HS 8x36 a not very expensive bin has very good stray light performance (better than the Pentax WP 8x32) which I put down to it's 6.5 degree FOV versus 7.5 degree FOV in the WP. I suspect too this is where the Pentax "narrow" design style comes from too. Pentax seem to have a bias for narrow FOVs than most of the other bin makers.

I suspect (my hypothesis is ...) that the amount of stray light problems in roof prism bins is related to the the FOV the eyepiece is exposed too (i.e. stray light getting to the outer edges of the EP field that's bouncing through/around/off the edges of the prism (due to insufficient baffling) or getting around the prism and baffles scattering from the barrel walls. So you should see fewer problems with a 10x with its narrower FOV.

I'm currently trying to see if this is true of the Vortex Diamondback 8x42 and the Bushnell Excursion 10x42 I have (they're supposed to be the same optics).

So there you have it. I like the Pentax HS 8x36 especially for $99. Perhaps the best all around bin for under $200 (so long as the FOV doesn't scare you). It's not the best bin in my collection but as a secondary bin it is very useful.

It would also make a very good starter bin with properties between the smaller 32mm and the bigger 42mm. I didn't feel I was missing anything from 42mm bin except the weight. Just don't drop it in the water.

Kevin,

Very nice writeup. I have owned two of the 8x36s (camo and black) and one of the 10x36s at this point. All have been excellent optically and mechanically...for this price range and for several hundred dollars more. This binocular is a bit of a sleeper and a genuine excellent value at the prices they can be found at these days. It is definitely one of my "recommended bins" under $300.

I use multiple pairs of binoculars, so the stray light issue never really bothered me. I use 8x32s in good light... usually during the day, so I never pay much attention to the stray light. Especially in woods. The best pair I have with respect to stray light again is a porro, 8x42, and it should also work in dark woods where there is little stray light, except looking straight up at warblers. The main source of bothersome stray light is the sun on the horizon.

Kevin Purcell said:

They're quite sharp but not top end sharp. I'm getting spoiled by my ED bins but with these I found they were just a little less sharp the Pentax WP 8x32 which is a bit less sharp than the Pentax SP. But they're sharper

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I just noticed scanning over this incomplete sentence

"But they're sharper"

Than what?

That sentence should have said:

"But they're sharper than the Vortex Diamondback the closest competitor (IMHO) in the best "bin for under $200" class."

I think FrankD mentions earlier in the thread that there seems to be a slightly different design (but I presume 3 element) EP for the 10x which has a large ocular lens and longer ER (an oddity in itself). So the 10x might be an interesting bin in itself though it does have a narrow 5.5 degree FOV. If anyone has used it I'd love to see a write up.

I had the 10x36 but to be fair I think I had an older version. Others said theirs were made in China and I'm pretty sure mine were Japan but I may be mistaken. They were very functional and usable. I enjoyed them even with glasses, though the eye relief was on the short end of the spectrum usable with glasses. One issue was that they had a very slight catch in the rotation of the focus knob that didn't really affect it but just gave a feeling of mediocrity. The other issue was that they had relatively poor stray light performance. I often thought they had a vail. Others have described this as a fog. In blue sky the color was fine, but in grey conditions the rendering was so-so. I'd love to compare to an 8x HS.

I had a quick look through the 10x36. It was OK. It was in my mind better than Monarch 10x36. It will be dimmer than most 10x42s, that was quickly clear. But if you get a good price, it will not seem awful to most, very comfortable in hand.

Tero,

I think you hit on the one issue that some folks, myself included, might find needs some improvement with the HS...the image is a bit dim. I think the fault though might be in that many people will compare them directly to a 42 mm bin because of their physical size. I totally agree with you about their ergonomics though....wonderfully well sculpted an easily one of my favorites from an ergonomic perspective.

Matt_RTH said:

I had the 10x36 but to be fair I think I had an older version. Others said theirs were made in China and I'm pretty sure mine were Japan but I may be mistaken. [...] The other issue was that they had relatively poor stray light performance. I often thought they had a vail. Others have described this as a fog. In blue sky the color was fine, but in grey conditions the rendering was so-so. I'd love to compare to an 8x HS.

Click to expand...

It's quite possible they were Japanese. I could see Pentax "moving" their production methods to a new factory just changing the badges.

I wouldn't describe the effect you see as stray light but perhaps AR or PC coatings are not as sharp as they could be. But in comparison the 8x HS I have beat the 8x Diamondback and have a more natural (less blue) color tint. Of course more expensive bins would be a fair bit sharper and brighter than this though I don't find them "dim".

In terms of off-axis stray light (getting close to a low sun) these are ceertainly one of the best inexpensive bins I've used.

It's quite possible that my contrast issues were at least partially a manifestation of dimness, since I really had few problems on clear, bright days. I'm not usually very sensitive to dimness, but in challenging light conditions, it may be more apparent if subconscious. I wish I had the 8x and 10x to compare. The additional 2x of the 10x clearly would have more demanding design challenges. Among other reasons, I could see as much or more with my 8x, so I decided to move on.

Oh, one other thing about the 10x Pentax HS: The eyepiece design is very different from the 8x!

I was looking at an old Pentax catalog and it points out that the 8x uses a simple 3 element in 2 groups design (Kellner or reverse Kellner, I suspect) but the 10x has a 5 elements in 4 groups design!

That accounts for both the spec that shows the ER on the 10x to be larger (17.5mm) than the 8x at 16mm. That's rather odd as a 10x usually has a shorter ER to match the shorter focal length with the same design. And, as FrankD observed, the ocular lens is larger on the 10x.

I treated myself to a Pentax 8x36 DCF HS for Christmas, £90 'as new' on eBay. In the UK this retails new for £119 to £239, depending where you buy. First impressions are very favourable: it feels 'right' in my hands, focus is very smooth and positive (slightly 'slow', and clockwise to infinity, which suits me) and the view is crisp. I felt comfortable with it straight away, as if I'd been using it for years. It's quite light, yet feels robust, and has a nice balance. IMO, it demonstrates how good Chinese binoculars can be, even at this modest price, and sustains the Pentax reputation for optical quality at moderate cost. I recommend it. Incidentally, Santa brought me Brin Best's new book "Binoculars & People",
which I'm also finding hard to put down. Verily, my cup runneth over...

Nice to hear of your new bins James. The HS definitely is a wonderful performer and a bit of a sleeper in my opinion. I thoroughly enjoy its performance and handling as well.

For those reading this thread interested in a HS might also want to take a look at the recently mentioned Pentax DCF NV which appears to be a a JIS 6 waterproof HS with upgraded coatings. Available in Feb 2009.

I think this explains why we've been seeing heavily discounted HS bins recently.

That definitely looks like a solid bin to consider Kevin. I look forward to seeing them eventually hitting the shelves. I wonder if they will be priced at the same price point.

FrankD said:

That definitely looks like a solid bin to consider Kevin. I look forward to seeing them eventually hitting the shelves. I wonder if they will be priced at the same price point.

Click to expand...

I think it is ... I think the pentax PR had the MSRP

http://www.pentaximaging.com/news/183/

The DCF NV will ship in February 2009 at US $219.00 for the 8x36 and US $229.00 for the 10x36 model. Each model is covered by the PENTAX Worry-Free Warranty.

Click to expand...

So essentially the same street price as the HS. I suspect Eagle and the like will have it at below $200 for the 8x.

Well, on that note, I am going to have to grab one when the time comes. The HS was too attractive even without complete waterproofing. Since that issue has now been resolved there really is absolutely nothing not to like about them.