KenM
Well-known member
Yes thanks Jane my understanding of moult strategies are a bit vague, “ogc’s” something greater coverts?
Cheers
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Common Redstart age? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
Yes thanks Jane my understanding of moult strategies are a bit vague, “ogc’s” something greater coverts?
Cheers
Brian J Small
Well-known member
2 photos from Tarsiger of an autumn 'juvenile/1cy' female (though aged in hand and prob indistinguishable from 2cy/ad female in field):-
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Ppho101003RonskiPaP1.JPG
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Ppho101003RonskiPaP3.JPG
This one is labelled as a 1cy female, but is a 1cy male in Sept
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/aksu/t_Phopho_1N_2008_10_Picture630.jpg
...as is this one
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/masa/Phopho07.jpg
This is an adult/2cy male in Sept - note black lores:-
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/aksu/t_Phopho_p1K_2008_10_Picture624.jpg
Brian
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Ppho101003RonskiPaP1.JPG
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Ppho101003RonskiPaP3.JPG
This one is labelled as a 1cy female, but is a 1cy male in Sept
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/aksu/t_Phopho_1N_2008_10_Picture630.jpg
...as is this one
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/masa/Phopho07.jpg
This is an adult/2cy male in Sept - note black lores:-
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/aksu/t_Phopho_p1K_2008_10_Picture624.jpg
Brian
KenM
Well-known member
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Sorry old greater [unmoulted and hence still juvenile-type] greater coverts
I've been looking at online photos of female Redstarts and it really is eye of faith stuff to pick it up on photos - and its length more than a difference in the tone. Males on the other hand are usually realtively easy to age - though this one is labelled in HBW as a 1st w male
https://www.hbw.com/ibc/photo/common-redstart-phoenicurus-phoenicurus/first-winter-male doesn't have " between the eyes" ogcs, though the angle doesn't help.
But this one https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...t-winter-high-res-stock-photography/523646012
is more obvious 1st year male.
This looks to be a male too (2 grey inner GCs)
https://a4.pbase.com/o6/60/469160/1/103939188.7JdRyI3l.Codirosso3.jpg
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KenM
Well-known member
Thanks for that Jane! In all honesty I’m still a little confused to the point of wondering if “Transgender” is a possibility, and if so, is there a ratio of aged ID’s as opposed to non?
Interesting that Brian appears to have declined an opinion and that yourself and Grahame have, clearly there is a possible conflict of confidence not just on specifically ageing post Juv. moulting females but even separating the genders of this species between 1st and 2nd calendar years?
In the light of comments from yourselves, I’m still having problems reconciling some of these images to gender specific, all I can say is that the subject bird was overwhelmingly “Ash grey” to the uppers with very little brown tint observed.
Thanks for all your respective deliberations on this bird, it’s a shame that being shot in such close proximity just (5’ from the window), that a positive gender and ageing ID was not possible in this instance.
Many thanks
Interesting that Brian appears to have declined an opinion and that yourself and Grahame have, clearly there is a possible conflict of confidence not just on specifically ageing post Juv. moulting females but even separating the genders of this species between 1st and 2nd calendar years?
In the light of comments from yourselves, I’m still having problems reconciling some of these images to gender specific, all I can say is that the subject bird was overwhelmingly “Ash grey” to the uppers with very little brown tint observed.
Thanks for all your respective deliberations on this bird, it’s a shame that being shot in such close proximity just (5’ from the window), that a positive gender and ageing ID was not possible in this instance.
Many thanks
johnallcock
Well-known member
Ken, people have already expressed an opinion regarding gender. Grahame and Jean Francois have clearly stated that they consider the bird to be female. Jane has stated that she can see a moult contrast and therefore considers it to be male.
Personally I see this bird to be fairly uniformly brown like a female, with perhaps a greyer tone to the upperparts than the average. As I have tried to state in two previous posts, I would expect a 1CY male to show more features suggestive of an adult - for example a darker throat and more rufous on the underparts, and I would expect a 2CY male to be indistinguishable from an adult. This seems to be supported in the links provided by Brian, although the links provided by Jane perhaps suggest a few 1CY males are less obvious.
To make sure there is no ambiguity, I will state clearly that I think this is a female that cannot be definitely aged.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
More accurately I can see a moult contrast so it has to be 1st year bird - then thinking out loud about whether its possible that this is an unusual male where the disctinctive male plumage is more perfectly obscured by [to be worn off as breedin plumage emerges] tips than usual, or if its a female with unusually grey and contrasting adult greater coverts.
KenM
Well-known member
I thank you for your comments John, Redstarts are a particular favourite of mine how would you, or anybody else...gender/age ascribe this bird?, (taken April 18th 2014 on Cyprus)
Cheers
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KenM
Well-known member
Yes I have, but it’s red tail puts paid to that consideration, clearly a Redstart and very relevant to the topic regarding sex and age.
Cheers
dantheman
Bah humbug
Threads back in 2016 and 2018 ...
Not sure if it was commented on but there is something major going on with the contrast/saturation?
KenM
Well-known member
I ramped the contrast up to show the red tail! just to confirm that it was a Redstart and not a WTRobin.
KenM
Well-known member
That’s my point PYRTLE, surely a 2nd calendar year male “ should” be sporting a black throat....even by the Spring?
How much do we know about “anomalous” immature plumage regardless of the gender, perhaps sometimes we can’t always ascribe individuals to one sex or another?
Cheers
CARERY
Well-known member
As others also think the OP bird is a female - no red at the underside.
Still, for me the outcome of this thread is that sexing of some birds in autumn seems to be not as straightforward as I thought it should be.
Even in spring some birds - like the oversaturated one - seem to show 'transgender' features. As this bird from June:
http://netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=68326
The photographer considers it to be a female showing male features. This phenomenon is known as 'Hahnenfedrigkeit' in German. It is not too rare that older females of some taxa show male features. But in this case I'm not sure if this is really can be a female. So, to me it seems likely that there are those 2cy type males.
Still, for me the outcome of this thread is that sexing of some birds in autumn seems to be not as straightforward as I thought it should be.
Even in spring some birds - like the oversaturated one - seem to show 'transgender' features. As this bird from June:
http://netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=68326
The photographer considers it to be a female showing male features. This phenomenon is known as 'Hahnenfedrigkeit' in German. It is not too rare that older females of some taxa show male features. But in this case I'm not sure if this is really can be a female. So, to me it seems likely that there are those 2cy type males.
