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Old Friday 26th November 2010, 21:33   #1
ed keeble
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ripple tank

a question for you folks who understand these things- I'm tinkering with a lapwing painting from the sketch posted downthread and realise that there's something I've never got a grip on

if I've got the wind blowing at an angle as shown here (scribble 1 and 2 attached, wind from bottom left of the page), I think I should see - did see in fact - ripples blowing at an angle across the water (scribble 2), floating reed swinging into line with the wind

but it looks cockeyed and queasy making

so if I take look at a master of these things like the wonderful pics in Chris Rose's Grebes of the World, then no matter how varied and rich the ripples, they run horizontal across the page every time (like in scribble 3)

does anyone know what's happening here? is there some physical reason why ripples seem to resolve into a horizontal alignment, or is just one of those things where no matter what is technically correct, horizontal lines are the conventional and convincing way to do them?
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Old Friday 26th November 2010, 21:41   #2
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Doesn't it depend on which way the wind is blowing? If that's what's causing the ripples, then they certainly could be diagonal. In fact, I think diagonal ripples add more ofa feeling of action. I have been doodling on a pre-painting sketch of a flock of avocets standing in several diagonal lines in shallow water. I am considering using diagonal ripples, either slanted the same way as the bird flock or even slanted diagonally across the diagonal of the birds. One of us should try diagonal ripples and see what happens.
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Old Friday 26th November 2010, 21:45   #3
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While I dont have a good technical answer.. the diagnal ripples do seem...off balance somehow. But...you should be able to work them that way.. nothing in nature is 100% constant.... hmm will be subscribing to this thread! Very intersted to see what the pros have to say!
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Old Friday 26th November 2010, 23:25   #4
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I am not a professional, but how about when the waves first diagonally and then horizontally through the upper edge and quiet?

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Old Saturday 27th November 2010, 02:10   #5
phil baber
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Art Physics!

All kinds of variables here Ed!

Wind from bottom left is just one facet of what is going on. Wind driving water onshore at the surface will create a return wash as it hits the shore. So from your viewpoint it will make the ripples seem horizontal and travelling backward in a straight line.

I don't think you can analyse this too deeply, because it is far too complex. As all kinds of variable factors are present as Suvi says.

Short of enrolling on a Meteorology degree, or a Quantum one, I would feel my way into it. Or take some video to analyse just what happens. Then take "grabs" and analyse and marry back to the painting.

I think only the construct, "God" could fill you in on the answer to this!

And, then, do I even know what I am talking about?!
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Old Saturday 27th November 2010, 11:05   #6
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Doesn't gravity have something to do with it?! Thus, on a horizontal plane, regardless of the surface movement, caused by Moon, Wind, boats, birds, surface currents etc, water does lie flat to the horizon, unless it's moving down a waterfall/steep brooks/eddies etc. And the widest FOV, is going to be in a horizontal direction rather than vertical, no? Also, directional light comes into play, if the image you're looking at, takes in a large expanse of water, perspective of reflected light from the sky creates horizontal differentiations according to distance. cf. link below. However, if you just take a small section of surface movement in water, cf. link below, then, it could be any direction.

http://blog.marywagstaff.com/2008/08...ing-water.html

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...w=1280&bih=522

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...w=1280&bih=522
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Old Saturday 27th November 2010, 12:24   #7
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the only thing that I can add despite my grade B Physics GCSE, is that your diagonal waves don't seem to follow the rules of perspective, ie, there is no foreshortening. I think that may help, also, wavecrests are not straight lines, they travle faster in deeper water and so will drag and deform where it's shallower. Other than that, my advice is to do them how you feel aesthetically.
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Old Saturday 27th November 2010, 13:33   #8
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I just read all this again, and now have a bad headache! :(
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Old Saturday 27th November 2010, 14:11   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deborah4 View Post
Also, directional light comes into play, if the image you're looking at, takes in a large expanse of water, perspective of reflected light from the sky creates horizontal differentiations according to distance. cf. link below. However, if you just take a small section of surface movement in water, cf. link below, then, it could be any direction.
well done all- I'm working on it!

that quoted bit catches my eye- may explain why it looks/feels right do angled ripples at your feet but then dissolving into more horizontal lines with distance

EDIT- current version attached with ripples becoming more horizontal as they recede

time to get out and see some birds in snowy afternoon light
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Old Saturday 27th November 2010, 15:27   #10
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I think it comes down to perspective. We are most familiar with images of birds in the water shot at eye level where the bird, camera and water are all in close to the same plane.

I made these 3D examples with some wave patterns seen first from above, then from a low angle which is typical of bird photos. In each case, the main ripples are going across the frame, yet when viewed from a low angle they resolve themselves into a fairly horizontal pattern. In both cases I exaggerated the wave depth.

The first example http://home.comcast.net/~mattbohan/ripple.mov shows a very simple ripple pattern.

The second example http://home.comcast.net/~mattbohan/waveALT.mov Has a more complex pattern.
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Old Saturday 27th November 2010, 17:40   #11
ed keeble
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattybohan View Post
I think it comes down to perspective. We are most familiar with images of birds in the water shot at eye level where the bird, camera and water are all in close to the same plane.

I made these 3D examples with some wave patterns seen first from above, then from a low angle which is typical of bird photos. In each case, the main ripples are going across the frame, yet when viewed from a low angle they resolve themselves into a fairly horizontal pattern. In both cases I exaggerated the wave depth.

The first example http://home.comcast.net/~mattbohan/ripple.mov shows a very simple ripple pattern.

The second example http://home.comcast.net/~mattbohan/waveALT.mov Has a more complex pattern.
goodness me- they really do show it
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Old Sunday 28th November 2010, 01:27   #12
phil baber
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I find no issues with your ripples, Ed, in the above piece.

It is very "Monet-esque", and delightful in the extreme!

ps "Ripple Tank" is a great name for a band!

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Old Monday 29th November 2010, 20:11   #13
timwootton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed keeble View Post
well done all- I'm working on it!

EDIT- current version attached with ripples becoming more horizontal as they recede
Knew you'd sort it out. This is excellent. Finish it.
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