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Mis-handling of raptors by ringers/banders? (1 Viewer)

Good to see some healthy 'self-analysis' of an aspect of ringing technique from Falcon Birder and Mike which can only bode well for impressions of the profession's profile on the non-ringing birding community.



Wasn't Falcon Birder referring to permanent damage? Also, if not, couldn't the impact be worsened anyway (yes impact;)) with loss due to ringing at certain times of the year - ie. vis a vis long distance Migrants and timing of 'natural' moults?

But Falconbirder doesn't give any evidence that permanant damage is probable or even likely. It's an assumption.
 
I'm at a loss to understand why you feel 'subjected' by the contents of my thread - please don't feel obliged to answer but I'm hoping that others may wish to do so.

Actually I don’t feel obliged at all.

Patronising statements from individuals who haven't bothered to read the original text are frankly not welcome in this, or any other, debate.

Quite frankly Falcon Birder that remark is about as patronizing as it gets.


It may well have been wiser to state your credentials at the off-set and not a few postings later. In that way others might have 1. Responded more positively or 2. Responded.

I am sure all ringers try their hardest to observe best practice, but again as stated on previous threads, we are all capable of learning better practice. As an ‘A’ ringer have you addressed these concerns with your scheme’s administrators i.e. BTO? It would seem the most positive thing you could do in terms of getting support from your licensing body to make representations to their colleagues in North America. Also to perhaps revise and also advise better on handling raptors to those ringing in the UK.

It would be most helpful to all if you could post and illustrate (if possible) what you consider to be the ‘best’ methods to handle raptors. I am sure I am not alone in being interested in what a real expert has to say and advise.
 
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It is a separate issue from the 'Impacts Thread'. This is a discussion of techniques. I'm sure the thread will be of interest to both ringers/banders as well as others. It's obvious from previous posts that opinions will vary - but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thank you Ian and I completely understand your position and happen to agree. Time will tell if an old boy's cynicism has been misplaced!
 
I'm deeply concerned about two aspects of what I believe is mis-handling of birds of prey by ringers and banders.
<snip>
What do others think please?

I agree the handling in the pics looks pretty inept. The tail, feet, wings method is new to me but looks like it might be as dangerous to the bird as you say. The other pic shows the feet and legs dangling uncontrolled, so that should the bird suddenly twist and fasten onto the spare hand of the holder, the primary is going to be pulled for sure.

To photograph the underwing of a raptor one needs two handlers ideally. In any case the wing should be held fimly but gently at the carpal using the whole of the palm, and spread by light outward pressure if a second person is not available to assist.
 
FalconBirder,

I would apprieciate it if you wouldn't reproduce photo's of myself without asking my permission, it is merely a courtesy.

However, it would seem that you are calling my techniques into disrepute merely because I disagree with your opinion on safe handling. Maybe you have some better techniques.

I'm all in favour of peer-review and self-assessment, but surely being able to defend methods is justified.

As a very competant bird handler of many years, I would never handle a bird in a way that would damage its feathers or legs in any way.

And for the record....I moved my hand in that picture, purely for the sake of a demonstrative photograph, and as Iben points out, the bird was over a table. Since the foto was taken, the BO found funding to purchase electronic balances and birds are now weighed upside down in tubes, a much quicker and less 'stress' inducing method.
 
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I agree with vermivoracelata, BW, Peocile and Iben. Let's hear for the boys and be shown your preferred method.

You know for someone who wants an open and meaningful debate, your answers seem to centre around both the condescending and aggressive. Why?

On the one hand your posts, quite rightly, express your concern and ‘opinion’ about what you see as mishandling of raptors. When others, quite rightly, express their opinions as to why they think the birds photographed do not provide evidence of mishandling, then you get very agitated. Why?

You offer an opinion where it sounds as if you have more experience than most others on handling raptors. However, you do not offer an alternative or better method of handling raptors. Why not?

You state you have considerable experience as an ‘A’ ringer, but do not qualify your expertise with raptors. Why not?

All bona fide ringers on this forum who are licensed under the BTO scheme and share your concern over mishandling of ‘any’ bird through wrong technique, would have reported and discussed this in the first instance with the BTO. I am not the judge on this, but I am sure this is what the BTO would have preferred. If you are indeed an ‘A’ ringer why would you choose this forum to display such aggression to your colleagues?

I am left to wonder, or at least feel mildly curious, as to whether or not you are a falconer, are you?
 
. If their feathers were so critical that they couldn't cope with any defects at all, how do you think they cope when they're moulting and have lost half of them?

Raptors moult extremely slowly, typically replacing one primary to almost full growth before dropping the next one. So damage to, or loss of, more than one primary can be assumed to be undesirable for the birds well-being.

I was once given an old pigeon fancier's trick used for a bent, primary feather rachis. Play a jet of steam from a kettle onto the kink in the rachis. I have used this on waders that have struggled too vigourously in a net, and it works. It even works in a very basic way near the tip of bent passerine primaries, by wetting the kinked part of the rachis and blowing warm breath down a plastic blowing tube, such as one used for fat and/or skull ossification examination. You do all have one or more of these in your field kit, don't you?
 
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Play a jet of steam from a kettle onto the kink in the rachis. I have used this on waders that have struggled too vigourously in a net, and it works. It even works in a very basic way near the tip of bent passerine primaries, by wetting the kinked part of the rachis and blowing warm breath down a plastic blowing tube, such as one used for fat and/or skull ossification examination. You do all have one or more of these in your field kit, don't you?

I would be very hesitant to use this method. But that is my personal choice.
 
I agree with vermivoracelata, BW, Peocile and Iben. Let's hear for the boys and be shown your preferred method.

You know for someone who wants an open and meaningful debate, your answers seem to centre around both the condescending and aggressive. Why?

On the one hand your posts, quite rightly, express your concern and ‘opinion’ about what you see as mishandling of raptors. When others, quite rightly, express their opinions as to why they think the birds photographed do not provide evidence of mishandling, then you get very agitated. Why?

You offer an opinion where it sounds as if you have more experience than most others on handling raptors. However, you do not offer an alternative or better method of handling raptors. Why not?

You state you have considerable experience as an ‘A’ ringer, but do not qualify your expertise with raptors. Why not?

All bona fide ringers on this forum who are licensed under the BTO scheme and share your concern over mishandling of ‘any’ bird through wrong technique, would have reported and discussed this in the first instance with the BTO. I am not the judge on this, but I am sure this is what the BTO would have preferred. If you are indeed an ‘A’ ringer why would you choose this forum to display such aggression to your colleagues?

I am left to wonder, or at least feel mildly curious, as to whether or not you are a falconer, are you?

Hi Firetail (sounds painful!) et al.

I don't have much time capacity just now but I'll try to compile a response to at least some of the points made by you and others.

Firstly, I apologise if any parts of my earlier responses came across as aggressive as that was certainly not my intention. I guess it was the result of three things:

a) I was somewhat taken aback by what I perceived (rightly or wrongly) as dismissive and patronising replies which basically seemed to suggest that the issues I'd raised weren't worthy of proper consideration or discussion and that they should simply be consigned to some 'impacts' dump which was full of well rehearsed standard replies to the same tiresome and repeated queries.

b) I'd assumed (apparently wrongly) that readers would take it for granted that I was a ringer/bander and didn't realise that I was expected to state this up front - although even after I had done so clearly, one respondent clearly failed to notice it!

c) The combination of being someone who is known for calling a spade a spade but who does not profess to be a gifted author!

Concerning other methods, I'm only aware of one acceptable option to Issue (b) and that's by holding the wing at the carpel joint and gently manipulating it open. I believe this technique works effectively with virtually no potential risk to the bird or its feathers.

I'm not in any way trying to claim that this is a new or novel method - I learnt it from one or more of my trainers many years ago and a lot of the BTO ringers with whom I've worked have used it automatically.

However, it appears that not all ringers/banders do and I've become increasingly concerned by the number of books and publications, including those published by so-called raptor experts, that contain images of raptors with their wings being pulled open by their wingtips.

There are a number of options to Issue (a), most of which involve using two hands rather than one and/or one or more pieces of equipment to either wrap the bird safely and securely, to manage its talons effectively and to 'hoodwink' it.

I'll try to dig out some appropriate images to illustrate these - though I don't have access to a scanner so will have to rely on other sources.

I hear what you say about raising these issues with the BTO. Again, I had assumed (rightly or wrongly) that one or more of the ringing staff would monitor this particular Forum as it seems to me to be potentially highly relevant to their work.

Having said that, my personal experience is that the BTO ringing staff are a top notch bunch of people, highly motivated and hard working but they are simply overworked and understaffed and don't really have time to deal with single issues raised by one individual.

Which is exactly the reason why I posted the issues on this Forum because I wanted to verify that I wasn't the only ringer/bander who was concerned about them. If there is indeed a groundswell of opinion that these are bad practices, then I would certainly be willing to try to make the case to the BTO.

Poecile makes a very good point concerning evidence, or rather the lack of it, to support my position. When I was training, I witnessed two passerines and one Buzzard nestling suffer damage from the 'wing opening' method. On the basis of that experience I've never used the technique myself or allowed other ringers/banders to do so in my presence.

I remember being shocked when I first saw the 'one handed baton' holding technique being used on a small number of raptors during a single ringing session abroad. As far as I know, none of the birds suffered lasting damage but I recall being very unhappy about the way in which the birds were being treated more like some form of inert commodity, rather than a precious living creature. Moreover, that the remiges and retrices of each individual handled in that way suffered significant (and I believe unnecessary and unacceptable) 'scrunching' to the wing and tail feathers. Unfortunately, the particular situation meant that it would have been inappropriate for me to comment upon it at that time.

So the bottom line is that I don't have much hard evidence of damage because I've intentionally operated in ways which have completely excluded the possibility of gathering it! I don't make any apology for this and believe that many of the most effective practical risk management techniques rely upon applying common sense assessments of predicted (not necessarily evidenced) levels of impacts and likelihood.

Finally, I'm not a falconer. I've held a BTO A permit for more than 25 years and have handled a wide range of species in several countries, including raptors ranging in size from American Kestrels to Martial Eagles.
 
Raptors moult extremely slowly, typically replacing one primary to almost full growth before dropping the next one. So damage to, or loss of, more than one primary can be assumed to be undesirable for the birds well-being.

but nobody has provided any evidence AT ALL that this is happening.

I was once given an old pigeon fancier's trick used for a bent, primary feather rachis. Play a jet of steam from a kettle onto the kink in the rachis. I have used this on waders that have struggled too vigourously in a net, and it works. It even works in a very basic way near the tip of bent passerine primaries, by wetting the kinked part of the rachis and blowing warm breath down a plastic blowing tube, such as one used for fat and/or skull ossification examination. You do all have one or more of these in your field kit, don't you?

placing them in your mouth for a minute or two has a similar effect, but not as rapid. Useful in an emergency though. I'm always wary of using a kettle (and when do you have one at hand in the field?) in case the steam scalds the bird by accident or transfers up the wing - it can be difficult to predict where the steam will go. Sticking the feather in a cup of tea/coffee would also straighten it out, as many ringers will be carrying a flask of hot drink.
 
I hear what you say about raising these issues with the BTO. Again, I had assumed (rightly or wrongly) that one or more of the ringing staff would monitor this particular Forum as it seems to me to be potentially highly relevant to their work.

Having said that, my personal experience is that the BTO ringing staff are a top notch bunch of people, highly motivated and hard working but they are simply overworked and understaffed and don't really have time to deal with single issues raised by one individual.

High praise indeed! You're right that we are a bit stretched at the moment, but having said that, if there is a good case for adding to, or revising, the guidelines in the current Ringers' Manual, then a case can be made to the Ringing Scheme's Ringing Committee (an independent body overseeing the Ssheme). This will need to be based on good evidence though, which can often be remarkably hard to find. Where the evidence suggests an improvement is made, then this will almost certainly be agreed.

Mark Grantham
BTO Ringing Scheme
 
Raptors moult extremely slowly, typically replacing one primary to almost full growth before dropping the next one. So damage to, or loss of, more than one primary can be assumed to be undesirable for the birds well-being.

but nobody has provided any evidence AT ALL that this is happening.

The evidence is in historical accounts, in journals devoted to falconry and the bird fancy. But when you read that a Peregrine takes a *minimum* of 128 days to moult, aren't you curious to know why it takes so long?

I was once given an old pigeon fancier's trick used for a bent, primary feather rachis. Play a jet of steam from a kettle onto the kink in the rachis. I have used this on waders that have struggled too vigourously in a net, and it works. It even works in a very basic way near the tip of bent passerine primaries, by wetting the kinked part of the rachis and blowing warm breath down a plastic blowing tube, such as one used for fat and/or skull ossification examination. You do all have one or more of these in your field kit, don't you?

placing them in your mouth for a minute or two has a similar effect, but not as rapid. Useful in an emergency though. I'm always wary of using a kettle (and when do you have one at hand in the field?) in case the steam scalds the bird by accident or transfers up the wing - it can be difficult to predict where the steam will go. Sticking the feather in a cup of tea/coffee would also straighten it out, as many ringers will be carrying a flask of hot drink.

It is not necessary to use an industrial steam hose for this. A fairly gentle waft will do the trick. Perhaps I was wrong to use the word "jet".
I see you have a very cavalier attitude to health and safety at ringing. And here am I hovering over my trainees making sure they never put a finger on any food or drink, or in their mouths, without first using, at very least, an antiseptic wipe.|:(|
 
The evidence is in historical accounts, in journals devoted to falconry and the bird fancy. But when you read that a Peregrine takes a *minimum* of 128 days to moult, aren't you curious to know why it takes so long?

oh, so you mean by people who aren't trained ringers? So why on earth aren't you or anyone else directing these concerns at the falconry and bird fancy? Unless the falconry books you refer to detail damage caused by trained ringers, there is no case to answer for any rigners on here - the evidence put forward is still zilch. Anyone can go and buy a falcon and pull its wing about. Ringers have months/years of training and a governing body that tells them not to (ringing manual states: never hold a bird by the primaries).

It is not necessary to use an industrial steam hose for this. A fairly gentle waft will do the trick. Perhaps I was wrong to use the word "jet".

if you hold a wing over a kettle, you had better be aware that the surface of the wing may deflect steam onto the bird or up into the feather shafts. That's all i was saying.

I see you have a very cavalier attitude to health and safety at ringing. And here am I hovering over my trainees making sure they never put a finger on any food or drink, or in their mouths, without first using, at very least, an antiseptic wipe.|:(|

well, you can antiseptic wipe all you like, but it wont stop you being shitted on the face by a blackbird - what you gonna do? leave it hanging in the net, half extracted, while you run for a wipe? I did also say 'an emergency', btw. I have responsiblity only to myself, so I'll lick what I like thanks, mum.
 
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FalconBirder, you refer to the first picture you originally posted as the 'one-handed baton technique', can you please provide evidence of how this method is more harmful to the bird than any other way of handling the bird? I can't see how that would be any more harmful than holding the bird in the ringers grip?

And once more, please ask peoples permission before you post pictures of them in this forum, it is merely a courtesy.

Peter
 
As a non-ringer I hestitate to plunge into this debate, but I never let ignorance get in the way of having an opinion! With regard to the original comments, I must confess I find photos like those in question aesthetically very displeasing.
How robust a bird's plumage may be I'm not in a position to say, however, I do feel that handling birds in this way seems to be so 'disrespectful' (not the right word, but you get the drift) that it makes me wonder about the attitude of those happy to use such methods. Neither am I convinced that some similar photos where the birds wing has been stretched outdo not risk muscle strain or some such.
All of the above may well be arrant nonsense, but I don't think that my final point is entrely without merit. However 'harmless' these methods may be they strike me as an example of utterlessly clueless PR! Like it or not, there are those who object to bird ringing per se and publishing such pictures only give such people 'ammunition'.
John
 
Birds are robust, but there is nothing wrong with pointing out different, if not better ways to handle birds. After handling birds for 30+ years (makes me feel old to write that), I learn something new each time I work with a different person.

There are very experienced handlers that choose to handle birds as shown above(FalconBirder's method a picture) and have never had problems, but I have seen small raptors being held that way have their primaries bent in the process.

Not common, but not good, and in my opinion an un-necessary risk.
There are other ways to "one-hand" small raptors.

Experienced handlers should do what works best for them, but inexperienced handlers may only know one way.

There are definitely better ways to weigh birds than to put them in a "baggie".

Digital scales are very inexpensive now, so anyone (IMHO) interested in accurate weights should not be using spring scales anyway.

Birds can be placed in a variety of "pill bottles" (for passerines) or cans if large that hold them securely and safely.

(Eagles can even be held in 10 or 12" PVC pipes)

If interested, I can provide a list of can sizes that fit various birds.
(I can't tell you how many time I bought a product for the can size, not for what it contained.)

And one more "pet peeve":

No welding gloves while handling raptors please.
 
There are definitely better ways to weigh birds than to put them in a "baggie".

Digital scales are very inexpensive now, so anyone (IMHO) interested in accurate weights should not be using spring scales anyway.

Birds can be placed in a variety of "pill bottles" (for passerines) or cans if large that hold them securely and safely.

(Eagles can even be held in 10 or 12" PVC pipes)

Ringers changing over to digital scales may miss the ease of use of the traditional 'weighing cone'. I recently acquired a self assembly kit for these and the plastic was sufficiently rigid to remain upright when stood inside the cylindrical cans and tubes you describe. Very active birds may struggle less because they are held around the carpels rather than around the middle.There is much less danger of a novice user getting a bird stuck in the tube, too, and there is better aeration. In any case I drill a few holes around the can bases.

I've managed to get a good range of plastic containers starting with 35mm film canisters for crests/kinglets and working upwards. Dietary supplements like glucosamine come in a handy size for Blackbirds, and you get to ward off arthritis at the same time;). I like the idea of PVC pipe for the big stuff. I'd only seen metal tubes in use before.
 
oh, so you mean by people who aren't trained ringers? So why on earth aren't you or anyone else directing these concerns at the falconry and bird fancy?

You queried the rate at which raptors dropped primaries during moult. I told you where this information was lodged. Nothing to do with handling methods.

if you hold a wing over a kettle, you had better be aware that the surface of the wing may deflect steam onto the bird or up into the feather shafts. That's all i was saying.

Quite so. I think anyone wishing to experiment with this method will be pretty cautious how they do it, as the fingers presenting the bird's feather will be vulnerable, too.

well, you can antiseptic wipe all you like, but it wont stop you being shitted on the face by a blackbird - what you gonna do? leave it hanging in the net, half extracted, while you run for a wipe? I did also say 'an emergency', btw. I have responsiblity only to myself, so I'll lick what I like thanks, mum.

Actually you have rather wide ranging responsibility these days, when no one is sure how and when the nastier strains of bird flu will cross the species barrier. You also have responsibility for using "best practice" if you are a BTO permit holder, and the Ringer's Manual indicates what that is, hygienically speaking. And while you can't avoid contact with birds or their faecal matter you can and should avoid transferring the result of that contact to your insides. Keep your mouth closed when removing those Blackbirds from the top panel;)
 
FalconBirder, you refer to the first picture you originally posted as the 'one-handed baton technique', can you please provide evidence of how this method is more harmful to the bird than any other way of handling the bird? I can't see how that would be any more harmful than holding the bird in the ringers grip?

And once more, please ask peoples permission before you post pictures of them in this forum, it is merely a courtesy.

Peter

Peter

With the greatest respect, please can I ask you to do everyone a favour and read the text of my earlier posts more carefully - this is the second time in the same thread that you've fired off before doing so.

I was going to ignore your point about the images but as you've brought it up again I feel I must respond.

Please take a look at the ID Forum and you'll find that there are thousands, yes literally thousands, of web-images used to communicate key points. And just think how many other similar non-birding Forums are available now too.

I'm absolutely certain that most BF members (and others) don't seek permission before doing so, probably because (rightly in my opinion) they don't consider it to be necessary.

Someone has chosen to share or show off their image or text by publishing it on a website and instead of providing a weblink BF members (and others) are merely moving a small amount of data to be more accessible to others.

Once text or images are published on the internet they are effectively in the public domain. My understanding of the UK copyright laws is that there are clear exemptions under such controls to ALLOW use of sections of such material for study, research and education - providing it is NOT for commercial purposes.

In a perfect world perhaps everyone would approach the webmaster out of courtesy but the reality is that many BF members (and others) are busy professsionals who certainly don't have the time to do this and I know that many webmasters certainly don't want to be continually bothered with such requests.

I personally have a significant amount of both text and images published on various websites and I certainly don't want to be bothered by tens, hundreds or even thousands of requests from people seeking to post one or two of my sentences or images into a chat forum.

I make careful decisions before publishing data on the web, based on the assumption that some of my data WILL be copied and used for NON-COMMERCIAL purposes.

I've taken steps to ensure that only limited amounts of my data can be copied at one time and I suggest you take similar or even stricter measures if your are concerned about this. Alternatively, don't publish on the web!

I certainly don't have any more time to waste on this non-issue so I think you're going to have to accept the reality of life.

However, I'll offer you a quick solution if you're so concerned about your mugshot being on this thread, rather than available via a weblink.

Please simply remove the image from your website and send me a PM when it's done and I'll guarantee to delete the image from this thread within 24 hours.

I believe this to be a fair and reasonable comprimise so over to you to consider and act - I won't be discussing this issue any further.

Best regards,
 
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