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Impacts of bird ringing (threads merged) (1 Viewer)

Here and on another topic/thread, it seems 'Ringer Baiting' is in season by the same people. For what its worth Ringers, I reckon you are doing a great job and recommend you ignore the bashing you're getting here and best of all don't indulge the discouraging remarks made on this thread with your answers!!
 
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Here and on another topic/thread, it seems 'Ringer Baiting' is in season by the same people. For what its worth Ringers, I reckon you are doing a great job and recommend you ignore the bashing you're getting here and best of all don't indulge the discouraging remarks made on this thread with your answers!!

Why do you think reasonable questions shouldn't receive considered replies?

I don't see why bird ringing should be a closed and secretive subject. I had previously, perhaps naively, accepted the claims that it was virtually harmless to the individual birds and of great advantage to our understanding and protection of species.

I thought it would only be done after serious consideration and a clearly defined objective of understanding and alleviating a clearly defined problem. Talk of ringing as a "hobby" or a way of attaining "ticks" or even that we should be grateful they are ringing and not shooting that have surfaced are not sufficient justification in my mind.

Even allowing for the fact that much useful and productive information might be gained from ringing, I find it strange that the patently, if unintentionally, cruel practice itself should be so enthusiastically accepted to the extent that anyone questioning the practice is considered to be unworthy of any normal consideration.
 
Gotta disagree Firetail this is only a bunch of folks giving their opinion. It makes for good reading. So please ringers Rise UP and give some answers. Opinions can be changed and mine has not even formed yet.
 
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i spoke to some ringers doing a demonstration at minsmere sometime ago i can't remember from which organisation they were from. they were ringing common finches and tits i asked them how many they did in a year they said about 12000 when i asked how many rings were returned they said about 120 i wondered at the time what possible use this was and what useful info could be attained this way it seems even more pointless now having read the previous posts about the possible negative affects
cheers
 
Thank you for bringing this to our attention, Derek.
I didn't know that.

Did you also know that British finches (such as Bramblings and bullfinches) are still trapped on licence in the Uk to supply and prop up the captive bird fancy that Derek was a part of? That's why many were so stressed, they would have been only several generations at most from wild birds (or maybe none), whereas eg Australian finches are are dozens of generations from wild birds and are semi-domesticated. I used to be involved with aviculture too, y'see.

Talk about pots and kettles!

Anyway, ringing is licenced and strictly controlled. Yes, there is a mortality rate, but it's very very low. If it affected the birds in a major, life-threatening way it would not give you useful data on the behaviour of wild birds, so would be pointless. In my experience, wild birds (passerines), not those with the added stress of being in aviaries, acclimatise to rings after about 5 mins and then ignore them. And that's up to 4 rings. It also has no impact on the breeding performance of the populations I've studied.

While there may be casualties at the individual bird level, at the population level ringing gives us so much valuable information on conserving birds that I think that the low casualty rate is worth it. Otherwise people wouldn't do it, and the Government wouldn't let them. The primary rule in the ringing manual is "the welfare of the bird must come first".

I'd ve very wary of hearsay. It's usually bollox. If you have specific queries or complaints then the people to ask are the BTO, who manage and police the scheme on behalf of your elected representatives.
 
In for a penny, will try an answer to the points I feel capable of answering!

Quote:I've read in the magazine of the Dutch RSPB ( "Vogelbescherming") that it had been scientifically proved right that ringed male birds attracted significantly less females than unringed birds, that is, when the males have one ring only. Apparently they appear asymmetric to the females and are therefor considered less attractive.

I would imagine their findings are not colaborated by other independent findings. I would be most interested for a translated paper on their work. Certainly in my various studies i.e. Pied Flycatcher, Redstart, Blue and Great Tit, Black-eared, Northern and Black Wheatears I would argue there was no identifiable difference in ringed males finding mates!

Quote: How do catching and ringing of Long Eared Owls on their winter roosts affect their daily cycle? They are caught in daytime, when they're supposed to be sleeping. Is this stressfull for the owls? Does it affect their ability to hunt succesfully the following night? Are they put back in the tree they were in, or do they fly off after release?
Anyone involved with this specific type of ringing can shed some light on this?


If you know the group or individuals doing this study/research (assuming it is in Holland), then would it not make better sense to ask them directly, rather than ask those not involved to speculate?

Quote: It has been known that Waterrails kill small birds caught in mist nets set up in reedbeds, and after killing them eating their brains. How is this being dealt with by bird ringers? Have there been taking measures to prevent this?
Anyone familiar with this practical problem would like to answer?


I have at many different times been involved in ringing at stations where there are large reedbeds and also where there have been good numbers of Waterrails. I have never personally experienced the problem you suggest, but I can tell you that where we were ringing the nets were visited every 10 minutes, so maybe this had a discouraging affect on this particular behaviour.

Quote: What is the impact on the daily cycle of a breeding pair of birds of prey, let's say Goshawk, when bird ringers approach the nesting tree, climb it, scare off the parents, put the chicks in sacks, lower them down to be weighed, measured and ringed on the ground, the man up in the tree staying there all the time sometimes being attacked by the stressed parents, then the chicks being hauled up again, put back in the nest and the ringing party taking off?
Anyone involved with this type of ringing like to answer


I have plenty of experience of ringing young raptors at the nest. Largely the success and least disturbance is achieved by timing. Young are monitored (from a distance where adults continue to feed, brood and visit the nest) until the age of development has reached a stage where there is an extremely strong bond between parents and young. In fact the attacks on intruders by the parents add to the confirmation of the strength for this bond. Always the objective has to be to spend least time at the nest site. In my experience after retreating a safe distance away from the nest after ringing has taken place the adults very quickly return. I have ‘never’ experienced a negative affect through ringing raptor chicks, either in mortality or desertion.

Quote: I've heard a story of a ringnecked Bewick's Swan or a Whooper ( sorry for not being specific but it's years ago ) who drowned in severe winter conditions when ice was forming around the ring, and accumulating to the point the bird no longer could hold its head up. I state specifically it's hearsay, but from a trustworthy source, and not scientifically reported unfortunately.

How can anyone possibly or sensibly answer to conjecture or supposition in this particular case?

There are at least some answers and sad it is to be asked somehow to justify something so important. Its amazing isn’t it, self righteousness and Holier than thou point scoring over ringing and ringers! Even more depressing is this subject has had so many airings and all the questions asked here are already answered within the many threads contained herein. Just take a little trouble to sift through these threads and doubters can save themselves the time and trouble it takes to post-up repeats on the same theme. Many of the anti-ringing posts are full of supposition and ‘think of the worse case scenario and then make it appear real’, that it misrepresents ringing so thoroughly as to loose credibility; At least to those who know better. You have the prime example here of one person describing how a bird must have been trapped at least six times and on each occasion be rewarded with yet another ring! The fact that it would have been attired with the rings on a single occasion loses some of its potency somehow.

Unlike so many facets of our mutual pursuit of admiring birds, ringing has a governing authority which can withdraw licensing from any person proved to be in anyway acting to the detriment of those birds he/she is ringing or attempting to ring. In other words it is regulated and policed. If any observation is made where it is felt a ringer is mistreating or harming a bird, then it is for the observer to report this to the governing authorities, of course naming the ringer and location etc. Facts are important accompaniments to any complaint (here or to any controlling authorities) in order to be taken seriously! As is amply demonstrated in previous posts, perception can be well off the mark from reality.
 
Did you also know that British finches (such as Bramblings and bullfinches) are still trapped on licence in the Uk to supply and prop up the captive bird fancy that Derek was a part of? That's why many were so stressed, they would have been only several generations at most from wild birds (or maybe none), whereas eg Australian finches are are dozens of generations from wild birds and are semi-domesticated. I used to be involved with aviculture too, y'see.

Talk about pots and kettles!

Anyway, ringing is licenced and strictly controlled. Yes, there is a mortality rate, but it's very very low. If it affected the birds in a major, life-threatening way it would not give you useful data on the behaviour of wild birds, so would be pointless. In my experience, wild birds (passerines), not those with the added stress of being in aviaries, acclimatise to rings after about 5 mins and then ignore them. And that's up to 4 rings. It also has no impact on the breeding performance of the populations I've studied.

While there may be casualties at the individual bird level, at the population level ringing gives us so much valuable information on conserving birds that I think that the low casualty rate is worth it. Otherwise people wouldn't do it, and the Government wouldn't let them. The primary rule in the ringing manual is "the welfare of the bird must come first".

I'd ve very wary of hearsay. It's usually bollox. If you have specific queries or complaints then the people to ask are the BTO, who manage and police the scheme on behalf of your elected representatives.

I honestly didnt know Bramblings and Bullfinches were trapped on licence to prop up the captive bird fancy , it should be illegal, it certainly was 20 years ago . I remember there was an argument in the 80`s where people in the fancy were trying to get the Bullfinches that were trapped in orchards given to them, instead of the birds being killed.

As for stress in aviaries, finches wouldnt breed in captivity if they were stressed.

And also, how do you know the birds you`ve rung were not bothered by the ring the next day , or the following day for that matter.

And your telling me that you can put 4 rings on a bird, and they are not bothered. It would be like you walking around in steel trousers for the rest of your life.
 
And also, how do you know the birds you`ve rung were not bothered by the ring the next day , or the following day for that matter.

There is a simple way, by field observation. Many ringers, i.e. those studying a particular population, are not simply catching birds and tossing them in the air never to be seen again - the birds are observed in the field too, especially those fitted with colour rings.

Even without a colour ring (I don't use, as it doesn't serve purpose in my field of interest), many individual birds can be identified and the behaviour can be watched in the minutes, hours and days after a ring is fitted.
 
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At the end of the day , everybody has an opinion, i`m not saying i`m right or wrong. I obviously know the amount of information gained from ringing birds is valuable. And i certainly wouldnt try to stop anybody from doing it, but its not something i will ever take part in.
 
And your telling me that you can put 4 rings on a bird, and they are not bothered. It would be like you walking around in steel trousers for the rest of your life.

Hardly warrants a reply, if you believe this, so be it.

Given one of the rings would be a light alloy, weighing almost nothing, and the others (if used) would be plastic, perhaps a pair of light cotton casuals is a closer comparison ...and shucks, what torture it would be to wear those!
 
As for stress in aviaries, finches wouldnt breed in captivity if they were stressed.

That mantra is often trotted out, but nobody has ever established the effect of "stress" on breeding, as far as I am aware. Stress may have no influence at all. After all, being 'stressed' doesn't stop battery hens laying eggs. And we all know what happens to human birth rates during times of stress such as wars...

And also, how do you know the birds you`ve rung were not bothered by the ring the next day , or the following day for that matter.

Because I've monitored many of them for their entire lives.

And your telling me that you can put 4 rings on a bird, and they are not bothered. It would be like you walking around in steel trousers for the rest of your life.

Depends what you call 'bothered'. They act just the same, breed just the same, pair up just the same and get killed just the same. So what else can you judge it by?

And as for steel trousers, they would be quite a bit of my bodyweight. Probably 100%. 4 rings on a bird is a negligible % of body weight. More like wearing 4 wristwatches. If you're going to make daft analogies, at least try and use realistic ones!
 
Hi Dave,

I feel the same way. But bird ringing has become institutionalised on a vast scale. It has the characteristics of a religion nowadays; the only thing for me to do something about it is asking questions, as I stated before. And I ALWAYS ignore neckrings on geese and swans when I'm out in the field, though I could read them easily with my scope.... I'm not willing to contribute to the institution as long as there's no proof the birds aren't bothered by the rings. Call me stubborn, call me a spoilsport, but I like my birds pure and pristine. :-O

For a while you had me fooled, thinking you were a reasonable person posing sensible questions. But reading both between and along the lines I see I was wrong about you.

I expect you're wondering how you gave yourself away, aren't you. Your post above says it all about your attitude. You watch birds with a collector's eye, and it bugs the hell out of you if the presence of a mark shows somebody got there before you. Pretend the mark isn't there and you can notch up the bird as your personal property for the brief time you are looking at it. If you were an old maid without a fella, you'd collect hundreds of cats in a squalid, festering and highly smelly old house |:d||:d|
 
And your telling me that you can put 4 rings on a bird, and they are not bothered. It would be like you walking around in steel trousers for the rest of your life.

The weight of a ring is less than the difference between the dawn and pre-roost body mass, for any diurnal bird at any season. This we know from..........RINGING.
 
Am I correct that in days gone by, before ringing came along as a way of studying birds, the shotgun was the method of choice in ornithology? I know what I prefer, and it isn't the shotgun method of study.
 
By you seem a very smart lot , you bird ringers, it looks like us mere mortal bird watchers know very little, looks like i`ll have to start ,right wheres the mist net .;)
 
but its not something i will ever take part in.

Except for ringing captive British birds, you mean? Ones that are derived from birds trapped from the wild? Where do you think your Bramblings and Bullfinches lineages came from? You'll know they are hard to breed, and supply could never fully meet demand so that the prices are what they are and the populations aren't massively in-bred. Licences are issued every few years to go and catch a job lot more. Not to mention the birds illegally trapped (still quite common), which is an ever bigger disgrace. So while criticising ringing, you're perfectly at ease with supporting a hobby that is part-fuelled by wild-caught birds both legal and illegal?
 
Am I correct that in days gone by, before ringing came along as a way of studying birds, the shotgun was the method of choice in ornithology? I know what I prefer, and it isn't the shotgun method of study.

Not that long ago. My record of the first White-winged Black Tern for Canada was rejected on the grounds that had I really believed it was that species I would have collected it (the photos I took were within shotgun range and showed the most important feature of all, the black underwing coverts and white rump of summer plumage)

I suppose if I had whoosh-netted it, ringed it and released it the same Earl W. Godfrey story would've applied. (Yes - I like to name and shame!)
 
By you seem a very smart lot , you bird ringers, it looks like us mere mortal bird watchers know very little, looks like i`ll have to start ,right wheres the mist net .;)

First things first - a trainer, a permit and a lot of humility. You won't make a good ringer without abundant respect for a bird in the hand.
 
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