• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Zeiss low light binoculars question (1 Viewer)

CJ,

As I understand it, the original CIE studies presumed that colour sensitivity was a function of the fovea and was based on a 2° target area. It was later realised that blue sensitivity was under represented due to the extrafoveal distribution of s-cones. I think the Judd Voss modification was based on a 10° target area.

I'm not sure I understand all the details of the Sharpe et al modification. It appears to recognise the serine/alanine 180 sensitivity variation I mentioned before, but there are other experimental features I don't understand.

David

P.S. Obviously these studies produce averages which have their practical value, but they also mask the range of individual variation. Some years ago I was working with a colleague on an imaging system which required both short and long wavelength illumination. Using 780nm LED I could see well enough to get around the lab, but my colleague saw nothing at all beyond about 720nM. We could both see 385nm LEDs but he saw them as blue whereas I saw them as violet. I've found both these functional differences acknowledged in the scientific literature, but as yet, unexplained. There are a lot more wrinkles to this story that have yet to be ironed out.

P.P.S. Another feature of the more recent studies was that they included women.:-O :t:
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure whether that's your observation or Holger's, but in any case I'd be curious why this would be so. (Assuming comparable phase coatings etc)

That observation is not true, AK prisms do not make an image sharper.

In many cases, a simple porro prism optic may be sharper.

Sharpness or resolution needs to be determined by observing on an optics chart under controlled conditions.

AFIK, I do not recall anyone presenting anything concrete on this.

There is a difference in quality among instruments and viewers ability also.

Jerry
 
Tobias, post 8,
In a paper published in Night Vision 1987 the result of the investigation of many persons was published in the age range 5-90 years old. In the age range 15-20 years of age pupil size varies between 6-8,5 mm, for 65-70 year old the size varies between 4-6 mm, so averages are useful but if you want to know how your eyes perform in low light you must investigate it.
Gijs van Ginkel

Thanks Gijs I was just quoting from Holger´s book but will try to check myself. But then, we do operate with averages.
 
Last edited:
Tobias,

In bright daylight your pupils are probably 2-2,5 mm diameter. Wouldn't they dilate a little to compensate for the "way darker" UV HD+ and EDG?

Considering that the human eye has a dynamic range of up to one hundred trillion to one, or 46,5 f-stops, that differentiation is somewhat ambitious!

John

Well I see what I see and it is quite embarrassing how bright the Zeiss AK glasses are even and especially in bright noon light. I tend to look at my daisies... and I am embarrassed.

Of course the darker glasses yield more saturated colours which can be preferable. Someone on this forum once commented the HT has a "washed out" look which is somewhat true in harsh daylight.
 
Last edited:
That observation is not true, AK prisms do not make an image sharper.

In many cases, a simple porro prism optic may be sharper.

Sharpness or resolution needs to be determined by observing on an optics chart under controlled conditions.

AFIK, I do not recall anyone presenting anything concrete on this.

There is a difference in quality among instruments and viewers ability also.

Jerry

Where are your "simple" porro optics rivaling a Zeiss AK glass? Starting with a Nikon E2? Or simpler? Indeed the only glasses rivalling my Habicht 8x30 porro in contrast/sharpness are the Zeiss AKs - I don´t know the Swarovskis - my Victory 7x42 FL and probably the 8x42 HT I tested years ago. Next best thing the Leica 7x42 with SP prisms. Just my personal observations from the few glasses I used. Of course that does not make the Zeiss glasses better per se. Obviously not, the Swarovision rules, the 42mm HTs are gone.

I did all the chart stuff with glass slide and booster and it´s IMO totally and utterly useless due to the fact that sharpness is a perceptive quality that has almost nothing to do with resolution. See Heynacher integral, Otto F. Schade etc.. No need for controlled setups, quite the contrary. But I will stop arguing with you from now on.:smoke:
 
I'm not sure whether that's your observation or Holger's, but in any case I'd be curious why this would be so. (Assuming comparable phase coatings etc)

According to Holgers´text AK has a whole bunch of technical advantages, the biggest one the total reflection without needing dielectric coatings. Images from AK prism glasses can have this hyperrealistic "washed clean" look you otherwise only get with good porros. Maybe this gap is closing with the best and brightest SP glasses, but I have not found one yet.
 
Tobias,

Did you ever try the Zeiss HT 8x54? That was a bit of a lemon. A number on the forum found it distinctly soft. Turns out it was effective resolution limiting for those with good eyesight, and easily beaten by many €250 SP roofs for sharpness in good light.

I'm quite aware that other eyes may see things differently, but I find effective resolution, contrast/ frequency profile and colour contrast to be the three main contributors to sharpness. I know one manufacture runs MTF profiles at multiple wavelengths, so I guess they do too.

David
 
Anyone can make a lemon with an AK glass, but I have seen many more with SP prisms. I have viewed the HT 8X54 and yes it was a disappointment, I paid $1350 for a brand new pair to see for myself only to have to return them. My FL T 10X56 is brighter than the EL 10X50 under the stars, likely a combination of the AK and 6mm aperture. I am going to view the SLC 10X56 soon, and I am sure that I will enjoy it. For now the weight and size does not matter to me in 10X glass or greater. In time the SP or other prism will go to the forefront, for now I appreciate my glass with AK prisms.

Use of SP prisms are attributed to cost and ability to make a glass in a smaller size, I figure the majority in the birding community favor a smaller glass, not so much for others.

Andy W.

Clarification: being a brighter glass does not mean a sharper image, perhaps more resolution under low light conditions.
 
Last edited:
Question: In theory what optical advantage if any does A-K have over porro?

In another thread [link] I report my experience that in a certain situation a brighter binocular can convey less detail than a less bright one and that is being debated there.

BTW: A friend recently got (despite my dissuasion, not entirely due to envy) an A-K Swarovski SLC 10x56 (and he, a hefty guy, says it is just fine as his main binocular for bird and nature watching). I hope to try the above test with that vs a Leica Ultravid 10x25.
 
The quest for brightness may often mean looking for the binocular with the highest transmission, and particularly at the blue end of the spectrum. This of course can introduce other issues, such as more readily detecting heat haze etc.
Brightest is not always best in all circumstances.
 
Zeiss Victory HT 8x54

Anyone can make a lemon with an AK glass, but I have seen many more with SP prisms. I have viewed the HT 8X54 and yes it was a disappointment, I paid $1350 for a brand new pair to see for myself only to have to return them. My FL T 10X56 is brighter than the EL 10X50 under the stars, likely a combination of the AK and 6mm aperture. I am going to view the SLC 10X56 soon, and I am sure that I will enjoy it. For now the weight and size does not matter to me in 10X glass or greater. In time the SP or other prism will go to the forefront, for now I appreciate my glass with AK prisms.

Use of SP prisms are attributed to cost and ability to make a glass in a smaller size, I figure the majority in the birding community favor a smaller glass, not so much for others.

Andy W.

Clarification: being a brighter glass does not mean a sharper image, perhaps more resolution under low light conditions.

How long ago did you try the HT 8x54? I was hoping that they have improved their quality. What did you find disappointing - the lack of sharp/clear image noted in Henry's 2014 review and others?
 
Warning! This thread is more than 5 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top