Pavel
Well-known member
Thanks Lou
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Crake Romania (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Pavel
- Start date
Thanks Lou
Tib78
Well-known member
Hi Pavel,
It’s a bit funny that my opinion on those would carry so much weight...as I am sure you see crakes on more regular basis than me!
Anyway I agree with those who have ided the front bird as a Baillon’s. I don’t have much to add to what has been said by the pro-Baillon’s camp (bill shape, mottled breast and also your own notes on behavior and gait) except maybe that the white throat doesn’t extent to the (upper) neck while it should practically always be the case on juv Little. To me the apparently long «primary projection» is due to some missing tertials...
And thank you, Tom, for drawing my attention to this thread
It’s a bit funny that my opinion on those would carry so much weight...as I am sure you see crakes on more regular basis than me!
Anyway I agree with those who have ided the front bird as a Baillon’s. I don’t have much to add to what has been said by the pro-Baillon’s camp (bill shape, mottled breast and also your own notes on behavior and gait) except maybe that the white throat doesn’t extent to the (upper) neck while it should practically always be the case on juv Little. To me the apparently long «primary projection» is due to some missing tertials...
And thank you, Tom, for drawing my attention to this thread
While I can appreciate that in the field, this bird may have looked different from other Little Crakes, and conveyed a different jizz, it does not look like a Baillon's to me. I cannot put my finger on precisely why, but I suspect that further investigation of some of the points discussed here (as well as evaluation of some of the features that have not yet been mentioned) will lead to the conclusion that the bird is in fact an odd juvenile Little Crake. Clearly, all is not 'right' at the bird's rear end, with missing tail and tertials (and possibly still stunted primary growth?) so perhaps the impression of the bird being short-arsed should not necessarily be interpreted as pro-Baillon's?
To my eyes, the character of the bird's face, which has a lot to do with that dusky wedge in front of the eye giving a stern expression I associate more with Little (some Baillon's are similar, but not quite the same) and the nature of the white spotting on the upperparts and wing coverts - open, without much indication of the filigree-like detail seen in Baillon's - is also suggestive of Little.
Let's not put this one to bed just yet! A few more photos might help...
Killian
To my eyes, the character of the bird's face, which has a lot to do with that dusky wedge in front of the eye giving a stern expression I associate more with Little (some Baillon's are similar, but not quite the same) and the nature of the white spotting on the upperparts and wing coverts - open, without much indication of the filigree-like detail seen in Baillon's - is also suggestive of Little.
Let's not put this one to bed just yet! A few more photos might help...
Killian
Pavel
Well-known member
Thanks a million Thibaut and welcome home! Your comment was a very helpful addition to this interesting Baillon's/not-Baillon's discussion.
Greetings,
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rosbifs
PutAin STOP
A couple of features not discussed
Little juv - dark crown stripe for little compared to brown for baillons
little juv - dark spot on ear coverts - baillons only diffuse darker area
We need Jane Turner to do her measuring thing on the primary spacing - the spacing looks even and doesn't look dissimilar in the two birds.
The book also states that south russian baillons can be paler with inly little barring on the flanks.
Again not sure I've healped again!
Little juv - dark crown stripe for little compared to brown for baillons
little juv - dark spot on ear coverts - baillons only diffuse darker area
We need Jane Turner to do her measuring thing on the primary spacing - the spacing looks even and doesn't look dissimilar in the two birds.
The book also states that south russian baillons can be paler with inly little barring on the flanks.
Again not sure I've healped again!
Earnest lad
Well-known member
When two birds are nearby one another and the id is uncertain, the English adage "birds of a feather flock together" may be worth bearing in mind, at least as a contribution to the discussion in view of the fact that birds of one species do indeed often tend to associate with other members of that species.
Richard Prior
Halfway up an Alp
Ah, I hadn’t properly looked at the rear end problèmes on the foreground bird so I suspect I jumped into the Baillon’s camp too fast. I have to admit, the Baillon’s I have seen have all looked more ´spangled’ than this bird which does indeed seem to have similar type of upper part spotting to the more obvious Little Crake behind it.
Pavel
Well-known member
In addition to my previous comments I am pleased to precise that in two hours of observation the two Crakes were feeding separately from each other and they "crossed paths" just once for about 20 seconds.
Tib78
Well-known member
I wish I had time to come and visit, Pavel...thanks...some time maybe ...
Anyway I should have perhaps restrain from commenting on this one as, like I said, I have seen neither species for a while now and on top of that I don’t have much spare time currently so I typed my comment in a hurry yesterday.
Killian, whose opinion should never been taken lightly, made some relevant points. Indeed, I too had noticed the face pattern with that contrasty white wedge to the lores and also that «isolated» ear patch is more a feature of Little than Baillon’s...yet the missing tertials and the impression of short wings with the primary tips rather tightly clumped together had convinced me to go for Baillon’s.
The coarse upperparts pattenr do look better for Little too...yet that bill looks really stubby and quite Baillon’s like.
An intriguing case and yes, more images would be most welcome!
Pavel
Well-known member
Please see a short video of the bird: https://www.facebook.com/pavel.s.si...60109476047¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic
Pavel
Well-known member
Attachments
CARERY
Well-known member
I've been following this interesting thread but refused to add something due to the lack of experience with crakes. Thus, my comment is more meant as a general contribution.
After all Crakes are one of the least understood family of birds. What do we really know about their moult/first feather growth etc? As stated before structurally there is something odd with the 'problem' bird. Long undertail coverts but no tail feathers, already rather long primaries but no tertials... Not yet fully grown or already moulted? Does it appear short-winged because the primaries are still growing because it is a bird from a late brood?
As we can't be sure what's going on, I would focus on plumage details rather than structure. Hence, as others have suggested, it should be a Little Crake.
After all Crakes are one of the least understood family of birds. What do we really know about their moult/first feather growth etc? As stated before structurally there is something odd with the 'problem' bird. Long undertail coverts but no tail feathers, already rather long primaries but no tertials... Not yet fully grown or already moulted? Does it appear short-winged because the primaries are still growing because it is a bird from a late brood?
As we can't be sure what's going on, I would focus on plumage details rather than structure. Hence, as others have suggested, it should be a Little Crake.
Pavel
Well-known member
Here below, I attach more photos of Baillon's
Attachments
rosbifs
PutAin STOP
As I said this does seem to have a dark crown stripe and a dark spot on the ear coverts - both these features point to Little and NOT Baillons.
Instead of focusing on the primary projection I was looking at the primary spacing - which looks even and not dissimilar to the other more obvious Little Crake.
Its fair to say the legs are a shade darker than the other bird but generally the same colour...
With all that said one of your last screen shots does show barring undertail which is noted as a Baillons feature and not noted specifically in Little. I need more books!
I'm using Duivendijk so need to go and find my collins bible... (both in the car). At the the end of the day I am not the expert here but I would listen to some of the others already commented...
Instead of focusing on the primary projection I was looking at the primary spacing - which looks even and not dissimilar to the other more obvious Little Crake.
Its fair to say the legs are a shade darker than the other bird but generally the same colour...
With all that said one of your last screen shots does show barring undertail which is noted as a Baillons feature and not noted specifically in Little. I need more books!
I'm using Duivendijk so need to go and find my collins bible... (both in the car). At the the end of the day I am not the expert here but I would listen to some of the others already commented...
PYRTLE
Old Berkshire Boy
What about the type of barring along the sides, and along to the rear flanks. I'm sure that in the McMillan Advanced field guide to Birds of Europe it mentioned that one of the species showed thin white barring against broader brown thicker lines whilst the other showed broader white barring against thinner brown lines.
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rosbifs
PutAin STOP
Ok sorry Collins has it as a feature on both...
