mountain man
Guest
Actually I find this thread completely fascinating. Just seeing how angry people get over it.
It's not that it's not interesting or valid, it's just that it's been done to death eight billion times before. At least.
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
British and Irish..or just British? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
It's not that it's not interesting or valid, it's just that it's been done to death eight billion times before. At least.
chowchilla
Well-known member
I think Sancho once posted that Ireland needed the Danes back as they'd probably do a better job of running the country then the pig's ear that the last Fianna Fáil government made of things.BSo me being half Danish will make me about as popular as Baggers modelling his t-shirt in Ireland following that post
chowchilla
Well-known member
Not everybody had the benefit of participating or even reading those eight billion other threads. The way I see it, if it's being debated again, there's a reason for it.
lewis20126
Well-known member
Richard Klim
-------------------------
lewis20126
Well-known member
Very useful Richard, but are the Channel Islands part of the "British Isles" in what may be (only) a political sense? They are certainly covered by the BSBI.
cheers, alan
Richard Klim
-------------------------
That's my understanding, Alan. They're certainly not part of the British Isles in a strict geographic sense.
lewis20126
Well-known member
For my benefit, Wiki: "The British Isles are a group of islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe that include the islands of Great Britain, Ireland and over six thousand smaller isles.[8] There are two sovereign states located on the islands: Ireland (sometimes called the Republic of Ireland)[9] and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (commonly known as the United Kingdom). The British Isles also include three dependencies of the British Crown: the Isle of Man and, by tradition, the Bailiwick of Jersey and the Bailiwick of Guernsey in the Channel Islands, although the latter are not physically a part of the archipelago."
cheers, a
cheers, a
Alastair Rae
London birder
I think you'll find that many in Ireland find the term "British Isles" offensive.
But back to the original question, I happily keep a combined Britain and Ireland list because I'm Irish and live in England.
But back to the original question, I happily keep a combined Britain and Ireland list because I'm Irish and live in England.
I thought about this the other day actually when buying the updated field guide. Why Britain and Europe? Surely "Birds of Europe" would suffice. I think there is a bit of imperialism there, implying that Britain is not part of Europe.
Or have I got it wrong? When you buy the guide in Belgium is it "Birds of Belgium and Europe"?
Farnboro John
Well-known member
The Channel Islands are not part of the United Kingdom any more than the Isle of Man is. They do not follow the UK tax regime and are not ruled from Westminster.
Their avifauna also does not form part of the British List as maintained by BOU, or Short-toed Treecreeper and Serin would be British breeding species on a regular basis.
Zoogeographically they are clearly part of continental Europe.
John
Their avifauna also does not form part of the British List as maintained by BOU, or Short-toed Treecreeper and Serin would be British breeding species on a regular basis.
Zoogeographically they are clearly part of continental Europe.
John
lewis20126
Well-known member
Farnboro John
Well-known member
I think you are probably right but most Irish birders I have met have been more sensible than that.
In any case, tough beans. :-O
John
Richard Klim
-------------------------
I don't think anyone could argue with that!
PS. But this is BirdForum, so someone probably will...
pianoman
duck and diver, bobolink and weaver
Transpose the R with the I....and 60% of your ''British'' list is IRISH
That's the answer - keep a Brirish list.
The term could also be extended to things like 'Brireland's next top model'
Alastair Rae
London birder
That's the sort of glib, patronising remark we're used to from the English.
I don't think it matters what list you keep, so long as you title it correctly. People keep lists for a number of reasons; including a simple reference to what one has seen and of course for the competetive nature of the whole thing. Hence "what's your list looking like?" and other questions. People have garden lists, but when you move house, you start again, or if you buy 10sq ft of land or sell 10 sq ft of land, how does it alter (sorry, being sarcastic here, but don't know how to use the smilies!).
For this to make any sense, one has to be clear about the definition of said list. Call it what it is, then we're all clear. It is also affected by which 'authority' (if any) you subscribe to, BOU, UK400...
Personally I keep a BOU list (which I had to remove Killdeer from recently as I had seen it in Co Fermanagh a few years back). My wife is from NI and so I'm there frequently, but if I'm discussing a list with others, then I am talking about a BOU list. If you keep British and Irish list, then fine, but how does that compare to someone's BOU list..? Starts to get very confusing and so if you're in any way 'comparing' lists you need to be clear about your recording area.
I also keep a Kent list, which is much simpler and cheaper!
For this to make any sense, one has to be clear about the definition of said list. Call it what it is, then we're all clear. It is also affected by which 'authority' (if any) you subscribe to, BOU, UK400...
Personally I keep a BOU list (which I had to remove Killdeer from recently as I had seen it in Co Fermanagh a few years back). My wife is from NI and so I'm there frequently, but if I'm discussing a list with others, then I am talking about a BOU list. If you keep British and Irish list, then fine, but how does that compare to someone's BOU list..? Starts to get very confusing and so if you're in any way 'comparing' lists you need to be clear about your recording area.
I also keep a Kent list, which is much simpler and cheaper!
Jan-Paul Charteris
Sussex birder and budding moth enthusiast
From living most of my life in Cricklewood and having many Irish friends throughout the early part of my life, I always understood the term United Kingdom to be found offensive rather than British Isles. I guess given that the term British Isles came from the same place that gave Ireland catholicism, it'd make less sense to disown it? Perhaps you could explain why the term British Isles as opposed to United Kingdom is found offensive?
pianoman
duck and diver, bobolink and weaver
British Isles is indeed a geographical term rather than a political one, so is not in the least offensive if used in the correct context. There have been times in the past where colonial-type people have used it in a political way, so the term tends to be avoided here. No one has found an alternative that trips off the tongue very easily; "Britain'n'Ireland" is a bit awkward.
But if you wish your birding list to cover Great Britain (the main island), Ireland (the main island) and all the surrounding smaller islands then "British Isles" is the correct term. Just "British" would be wrong though.
But if you wish your birding list to cover Great Britain (the main island), Ireland (the main island) and all the surrounding smaller islands then "British Isles" is the correct term. Just "British" would be wrong though.
Nightranger
Senior Moment
It is a great subject and one that always provokes a lot of heated views but at the end of the day it is down to the individual to choose. I think the only bit of clarity is in trying to avoid semantics when judging from afar. Strictly speaking, a British list not including Eire should be a UK list and also neatly excludes the IoM and the Channel Islands but not Northern Ireland. However, I think we are all (me included) a bit lazy at times and I tend to call my UK list, a British list. I have never done any birding in Eire, IoM or even Northern Ireland but I have birded on Jersey (not that I saw any short-toed treecreepers but I would not include them anyway) and a number of Scottish islands that would not qualify if I were to call it a Great Britain list. Personally, I would not include Eire but that is simply because I have unconsciously created a UK list anyway but I do understand why some people include Ireland although sheer pedantry says it should be a British Isles list for accuracy and you still would not be able to include the Channel Islands. There should not be any real issue though unless we use our lists for cross comparisons (dare I say, competitiveness) with each other and we require a standard.
On a related subject, I kept just a Lancashire list (including Greater Manchester and north Merseyside) not because I did not recognise Greater Manchester and Mersyside but simply because my hometown was in Lancashire when I was born. I felt this actually simplified lisiting for me both in my early days and when I moved back to the area (I have a Bedfordshire list and a now, confused Gwynedd list). The moment I hived off Greater Manchester for listing purposes it invalidated my Lancashire list completely, as many of the birds would have been ticked off solely in GM. In addition, in recognising GM for listing purposes, I had to also recognise Merseyside further reducing the Lancs list. This is essential because I feel much more closely part of the GM birding scene these days and my list has to reflect that because for the first time in my life, it is being used to compare next to others. In other words, I adopted a standard approach even though I always knew what I meant anyway.
On a related subject, I kept just a Lancashire list (including Greater Manchester and north Merseyside) not because I did not recognise Greater Manchester and Mersyside but simply because my hometown was in Lancashire when I was born. I felt this actually simplified lisiting for me both in my early days and when I moved back to the area (I have a Bedfordshire list and a now, confused Gwynedd list). The moment I hived off Greater Manchester for listing purposes it invalidated my Lancashire list completely, as many of the birds would have been ticked off solely in GM. In addition, in recognising GM for listing purposes, I had to also recognise Merseyside further reducing the Lancs list. This is essential because I feel much more closely part of the GM birding scene these days and my list has to reflect that because for the first time in my life, it is being used to compare next to others. In other words, I adopted a standard approach even though I always knew what I meant anyway.
Similar threads
