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Anybody bored with near-identical B-species? (1 Viewer)

My Eastern and Western Cattle Egrets

Another 'species' - are they identifiable in non-breeding plumage?

Reproductive isolation is almost impossible to directly study in most other groups, either because it's not really very feasible to to observe taxa in the wild, because some senses such as smell that might be important in species discrimination for some groups are hard to identify.

? Sure landmark studies on hybridization and speciation were done on groups from fruit flies to frogs. Actually pheromones of beetles and buzzing sounds of fruitflies are easier to study than songs of birds. This is simply done in the lab.

Rather, in insects there is so many undescribed species that there is no big drive to inflate it artificially.
 
As someone who follows Herpetology, I can certainly vouch that the BSC has been almost completely abandoned in reptiles and amphibians. My guess is that the same follows for fish and invertebrates. Mammals I think BSC is still heavily used, but even that depends varies by specific group.

BSC is currently by far the most accepted and widespread species concept in Ornithology, but I would say that Ornithology is fairly unique. Birds in general are just really really easy to study using the concept, as most species use species recognition methods that are easy to observe and amendable to human observation (visual displays and sound). They also are generally pretty good at dispersal, which means that populations tend to be more fluid and thus there is more secondary contact and "need" to develop reproductive isolating mechanisms.

Reproductive isolation is almost impossible to directly study in most other groups, either because it's not really very feasible to to observe taxa in the wild, because some senses such as smell that might be important in species discrimination for some groups are hard to identify.

Fascinating! Thanks for posting this. I had no idea the BSC was in such dire straits outside ornithology. To my (layman's) mind it's always been the most intellectually satisfying of the various alternatives, and I hope it continues to reign in avian systematics.
 
Can folks please stop insinuating that scientists are approaching this from a conspiratorial agenda-driven angle with absolutely no evidence? It's insulting and contributes to a terrible and unfounded negative view towards science that is generally eroding the value of objectivity and fact in this world. Please be better than that.

If there is any "agenda" it is identifying evolutionarily distinct units for the sake of conservation.

Andy

I could be wrong GG, but I interpreted 'those with a vested interest' in Andyadcock's post as purely meaning birders who want to use the list that gives them the most splits, and nothing to do with any scientists' agendas.
 
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? Sure landmark studies on hybridization and speciation were done on groups from fruit flies to frogs. Actually pheromones of beetles and buzzing sounds of fruitflies are easier to study than songs of birds. This is simply done in the lab.

It might be easy, in theory, but not for the layman to identify species, and probably excessively costly eg to produce a species list for a random nature reserve (unless there was a lab handily attached ;) )
 
Who mentioned scientists or conspiracies?

Sorry, a little twitchy after Jurek's insinuation earlier in the thread that poseur-taxonomists were publishing unjustified splits to increase number of endemics for tour companies to chase...or something like that.

Apologies.

Andy
 
Another 'species' - are they identifiable in non-breeding plumage?

From what I gather, not especially in non-breeding, though the average dimensions are different. But that's not exactly unprecedented in herons - breeding plumage birds of for instance Chinese and Javan Pond Heron look totally different, while in non-breeding they're almost impossible to tell apart.

The problem is that just because the difference between two species isn't obvious in the field to a human, it doesn't mean it isn't to the birds themselves, which has a lot more to do with whether they are the same species or not. Otherwise Marsh/Willow Tits or Willow Warbler/Chiffchaff would have to always move in close enough to each other to inspect the minutiae or have a brief awkward conversation to work out if they were the right species or not.
 
Another 'species' - are they identifiable in non-breeding plumage?



? Sure landmark studies on hybridization and speciation were done on groups from fruit flies to frogs. Actually pheromones of beetles and buzzing sounds of fruitflies are easier to study than songs of birds. This is simply done in the lab.

Rather, in insects there is so many undescribed species that there is no big drive to inflate it artificially.

Are Empidonax flycatchers identifiable in the field outside of breeding season? There is currently a debate right now locally on whether an out of season empid in the area is a "Western" or a Yellow-bellied. Yet Empidonax have distinctive vocalizations and many species pairs (Willow Vs Acadian) are almost text book examples of BSC in action. So "easy to id" for a birder doesn't really have that much relevance in talking about whether something should be split or not.

And sure...many studies using BSC in the past have been done on nonbird groups. But what facets of evolution and speciation did they examine? How do you test species recognition hypotheses on groups difficult to observe in the field. You can't test playback or go to a lekking ground for kingsnakes. Sure you can stick them in aquarium and see if they make happy little babies, but since animals didn't evolve in aquaria or are regularly forced to spend time in a tiny enclosures with other animals, that doesn't actually tell you anything about the wild condition.
 
I found myself uninterested in twitching species which are almost identical to the ones I already seen.
... but I found I cannot be bothered to re-check my list and add armchair ticks...

Anybody else feels the same? Should we develop a list of A-species which are really different, and B-species which are weak splits?

I guess you don't like to see either this bird:
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/09/157809-004-A4C9C01B.jpg

or its very similar cousin? 8-P
http://01271bfede0954168758-da1041207dde8e2d0a75af6fbedebedf.r83.cf1.rackcdn.com/20081213112910.JPG
 
Fascinating! Thanks for posting this. I had no idea the BSC was in such dire straits outside ornithology. To my (layman's) mind it's always been the most intellectually satisfying of the various alternatives, and I hope it continues to reign in avian systematics.

I'll at least put forth that there are those who disagree that the BSC is in "dire straits" outside ornithology. It is true that, at least in North America, herpetology has seemed to have completely taken on the PSC, and as Morgan mentioned, mammal taxonomy seems to be on the fence.

But in the realm of arthropods (disclaimer - not totally my discipline), I've seen very little detraction from the BSC. While many species can be visually similar, so many work under a "lock and key" mating system that the criterion of "do they or don't they breed?" is very straightforward - lending itself well to the BSC. In addition, insect dispersal is even more fluid and long range than avian, so genetic-based phylogenies quickly get messy with hybrids unless there are real separation mechanisms.

In botany, BSC is fairly robust as well, although nonuniformity exists. I'm not aware of many major PSC/ESC pushes for plants, and again they are taxa that more or less lend themselves well to discrete breeding units, albeit hybrid questions are certainly more complex than with arthropods. There are even many cases in which "sub-BSC" taxonomy is tolerated - for example there are goldenrod "species" which have two forms with different chromosome counts and as far as is known, the forms cannot breed. However, in every other discernible way they are identical. I won't even start with fungal taxonomy.

From what I have seen, PSC has been adopted most enthusiastically with taxa that have more limited dispersal - herpetology, riverine freshwater fishes, terrestrial/freshwater mulloscs, etc. and perhaps that is its most appropriate use. But I'm not quite convinced that its taking biology by storm.
 
I'll at least put forth that there are those who disagree that the BSC is in "dire straits" outside ornithology. It is true that, at least in North America, herpetology has seemed to have completely taken on the PSC, and as Morgan mentioned, mammal taxonomy seems to be on the fence.

But in the realm of arthropods (disclaimer - not totally my discipline), I've seen very little detraction from the BSC. While many species can be visually similar, so many work under a "lock and key" mating system that the criterion of "do they or don't they breed?" is very straightforward - lending itself well to the BSC. In addition, insect dispersal is even more fluid and long range than avian, so genetic-based phylogenies quickly get messy with hybrids unless there are real separation mechanisms.

In botany, BSC is fairly robust as well, although nonuniformity exists. I'm not aware of many major PSC/ESC pushes for plants, and again they are taxa that more or less lend themselves well to discrete breeding units, albeit hybrid questions are certainly more complex than with arthropods. There are even many cases in which "sub-BSC" taxonomy is tolerated - for example there are goldenrod "species" which have two forms with different chromosome counts and as far as is known, the forms cannot breed. However, in every other discernible way they are identical. I won't even start with fungal taxonomy.

From what I have seen, PSC has been adopted most enthusiastically with taxa that have more limited dispersal - herpetology, riverine freshwater fishes, terrestrial/freshwater mulloscs, etc. and perhaps that is its most appropriate use. But I'm not quite convinced that its taking biology by storm.

Very interesting indeed. Many thanks.
 
I'll at least put forth that there are those who disagree that the BSC is in "dire straits" outside ornithology. It is true that, at least in North America, herpetology has seemed to have completely taken on the PSC, and as Morgan mentioned, mammal taxonomy seems to be on the fence.

But in the realm of arthropods (disclaimer - not totally my discipline), I've seen very little detraction from the BSC. While many species can be visually similar, so many work under a "lock and key" mating system that the criterion of "do they or don't they breed?" is very straightforward - lending itself well to the BSC. In addition, insect dispersal is even more fluid and long range than avian, so genetic-based phylogenies quickly get messy with hybrids unless there are real separation mechanisms.

In botany, BSC is fairly robust as well, although nonuniformity exists. I'm not aware of many major PSC/ESC pushes for plants, and again they are taxa that more or less lend themselves well to discrete breeding units, albeit hybrid questions are certainly more complex than with arthropods. There are even many cases in which "sub-BSC" taxonomy is tolerated - for example there are goldenrod "species" which have two forms with different chromosome counts and as far as is known, the forms cannot breed. However, in every other discernible way they are identical. I won't even start with fungal taxonomy.

From what I have seen, PSC has been adopted most enthusiastically with taxa that have more limited dispersal - herpetology, riverine freshwater fishes, terrestrial/freshwater mulloscs, etc. and perhaps that is its most appropriate use. But I'm not quite convinced that its taking biology by storm.

Very interesting, and sensible. I see nothing wrong with using BSC where possible, and using other methods when it is difficult to apply.
 
How do you test species recognition hypotheses on groups difficult to observe in the field. You can't test playback or go to a lekking ground for kingsnakes.

All you need for testing interbreeding vs no interbreeding, is to identify hybrids visually or by DNA. One needs not understand or care about precise mechanisms of recognition.

I guess botanists never, ever tested in the field how pollen finds chemical clues to pollinate or not to pollinate a flower, but this did not stop studies on hybridization of wild trees and flowers.
 
All you need for testing interbreeding vs no interbreeding, is to identify hybrids visually or by DNA. One needs not understand or care about precise mechanisms of recognition.

I guess botanists never, ever tested in the field how pollen finds chemical clues to pollinate or not to pollinate a flower, but this did not stop studies on hybridization of wild trees and flowers.

Yeah, but Mysticete is understating his own difficulties, as even spotting 5% of cetaceans and other ocean wanderers (and I mean 5% of an individual you've located) is awfully difficult.....

Visual identification not necessarily an option!

John
 
I guess one builds a corral surrounded by sheets of plastic, and hopes a Red-tailed Hawk does not get inside. ;)

There are groups where observing anything is impossible - sea fish, for example. But I never heard it is an argument for favoring one way of treating species...
 
All you need for testing interbreeding vs no interbreeding, is to identify hybrids visually or by DNA. One needs not understand or care about precise mechanisms of recognition.

I guess botanists never, ever tested in the field how pollen finds chemical clues to pollinate or not to pollinate a flower, but this did not stop studies on hybridization of wild trees and flowers.

But how many hybrids are needed to "verify" BSC is in place? Even the most staunch BSC advocates in Ornithology don't believe the existence of hybrids is sufficient to lump a species. You need to prove free interbreeding with hybrid offspring being fully fertile and and not having negative selective pressure against them. That's easier said than done. Plenty of species hybridize when in contact....however if those hybrid zones are narrow and not expanding, it's generally not considered a problem for keeping the two species in isolation

And that doesn't even get into the problem of allopatry. If the two species geographically never come into contact, your left again to arbitrarily determine "how different" the populations are, and whether that difference is sufficient for splitting and lumping.
 
Yeah, but Mysticete is understating his own difficulties, as even spotting 5% of cetaceans and other ocean wanderers (and I mean 5% of an individual you've located) is awfully difficult.....

Visual identification not necessarily an option!

John

Oh man whales are so much worse. At least pinnipeds are polite enough to be spend a lot of time on land facilitating behavioral/dna studies, not to mention being small enough in body size that museums can actually accumulate enough material for morphometric studies.
 
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