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The 3 big brands using experience (1 Viewer)

Malsam

Active member
Hi all,

I’m consider new to the world of optics, specifically on binos. In fact this equipment just came into my life about a year and a half ago when i go into birding. Previously I’m into photography, more on nature/landscape but turn portraits.

Went into birding since late 2017-early 2018 and have been trying to get a bino to start off. Joined clubs etc and started reading about the bins and the brands which of course leads me to the Swarovski, Leica and Carl Zeiss topic.

I would like to know for those who use exclusively a brand or those who have experience with either:
1. what is your advice for owning more than 1 piece of bino? Eg. Would it be better if I go all for the same brand for better viewing, expectation, customer support etc? Or have a mix of both or 3 to enjoy/experience the best of all worlds?

2. What are the key strength (your PERSONAL likes) and weakness (your PERSONAL hates) about the brand/range etc.

Your sharing would be invaluable for my reference as I’m quite overwhelmed by the selection of brands/range etc.

Really appreciate all your sharing!
 
Hi Malsam,

Your questions are good and cover a huge territory, so at the risk of offending others with over-simplification, a quick introduction . . .

Product Lines
All 3 manufacturers currently produce 2 premium product lines:
- Swarovski the EL and the SLC
- Leica the Noctivid and the Ultravid
- Zeiss the SF and the HT

With each manufacturer:
- the first line has some form of flattened field of view, and a no-axle dual bridge design
- the second line has both a more traditionally curved field of view, and a single bridge (either full length or reduced)


For a detailed introduction, see Tobias Mennle’s extensive comparison of the 8x42 models at: http://www.greatestbinoculars.com/allpages/reviews/shootouts/shootoutpremier8x42s/8x42shootout.html
Tobias also writes separately about the Leica Noctivid

The strength of Tobias’ article (its detail) is also it’s weakness for many. To reduce it to a comprehensible size:
- start at ‘Preface’ then go down to ‘Characters’ and then to ‘Which one to buy?’ (at the end)
- then go back and look at the various sub-headings that take your interest

A qualification: Tobias’ comments do not necessarily apply equally to all models in each product line
e.g. see the table from Holger Merlitz in relation to various degrees of side-to-side distortion to binocular field’s of view (it’s from: http://www.holgermerlitz.de/newk/newk.html )
n.b. this is distinct from the degree of field flatness front-to-rear along the optical axis


Mix-and-match?
With knowledge and experience this is the way most people go. There’s no one binocular line that is overwhelming superior
And while product lines have shared characteristics, as indicated in the table there are variations within product lines


Aftersales Service
In general Swarovski is consistently superior. Leica and Zeiss tend to wax and wane. However, this should not be an over-riding consideration


John
 

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Thank you so much for sharing your insights! This is invaluable info to newbies like myself. I came from photography world and Leica is the only name I have heard besides some occasional Zeiss brand mentions and Swarovski is jewellery in my country :).

I decided on the swarovski for a few factors...good support from the distributor, a very experience birder who also try to sell me this brand hence my thoughts are - you can never go wrong following good advice and service!

My personal limited experience with the 3 are :
1. Leica (both lines) - this is what a bino should look! Optically wise, can’t tell much since I don’t use 1 long enough but I remember Noctivid colour is so rich! The selling price here is so much more compared to overseas too.

2. Carl Zeiss (HT only) - feels good! (Ergonomically). Optics wise I remember how clear it is and the body feels dense and solid. I just don’t like the grey and rubbery feel that leaves scratches from finger nails. Very limited choices of selection in my country and most shops don’t carry it.

3. Swarovski (both lines) - expensive and military looking! Only 1 shop carries it.
 
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...1. what is your advice for owning more than 1 piece of bino? Eg. Would it be better if I go all for the same brand for better viewing, expectation, customer support etc? Or have a mix of both or 3 to enjoy/experience the best of all worlds?...
...2. What are the key strength (your PERSONAL likes) and weakness (your PERSONAL hates) about the brand/range etc...

Unlike in photography, there is no reason to commit to a single brand. Get the best products for your purpose from whichever brands make them. The different brands have different specialties or choose different trade-offs in the design of different models. These choices aren't always consistent from model to model, even within a brand, so I think buying the best models will lead savvy users to own binoculars from different brands.

In my case, I consider the best bins for my purposes to be as follows

full-size: Swarovski 8.5x42 EL Swarovision
compact: Zeiss 8x25 Victory Pocket
close focus: Pentax 6.5x21 Papilio II

I own a lot of other bins (including many other brands) because I like bins and I've kept my old ones (previous "best in category" models), but if I were starting fresh and keeping my collection as minimal as possible, these are the only three that I'd need. I've considered adding one of the Canon IS binocular models, but so far haven't found enough utility because I prefer spotting scopes for critical extended or distant viewing.

--AP
 
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Unlike in photography, there is no reason to commit to a single brand. Get the best products for your purpose from whichever brands make them. The different brands have different specialties or choose different trade-offs in the design of different models. These choices aren't always consistent from model to model, even within a brand, so I think buying the best models will lead savvy users to own binoculars from different brands.

In my case, I consider the best bins for my purposes to be as follows

full-size: Swarovski 8.5x42 EL Swarovision
compact: Zeiss 8x25 Victory Pocket
close focus: Pentax 6.5x21 Papilio II

I own a lot of other bins (including many other brands) because I like bins and I've kept my old ones (previous "best in category" models), but if I were starting fresh and keeping my collection as minimal as possible, these are the only three that I'd need. I've considered adding one of the Canon IS binocular models, but so far haven't found enough utility because I prefer spotting scopes for critical extended or distant viewing.

--AP

AP,

Sound advice as always. I really want a good bin to use in museums and wondered whether the 6.5 Papillio would be better for that than my 8x Victory Pocket as the FOV is the same. Mainly interested in getting a full view of paintings as opposed to ultra close up views of objects so have hesitated on the Papillio although the reverse porro design may yield brighter images indoors than the Pocket (?). Any input you may have would be appreciated.

On another note, while I'm sure you have tried them, after several years of use I have come to appreciate more and more the versatility and convenience of the Canon 12x36 IS III. Along with the Victory Pocket, the Canon is out of its case and available at all times for looks out the window or quick trips into the yard to view the various wild life in my neighborhood.

Mike
 
...I really want a good bin to use in museums and wondered whether the 6.5 Papillio would be better for that than my 8x Victory Pocket as the FOV is the same. Mainly interested in getting a full view of paintings as opposed to ultra close up views of objects so have hesitated on the Papillio although the reverse porro design may yield brighter images indoors than the Pocket (?). Any input you may have would be appreciated...

Hi Mike. I don't think the Papilio would be better than the Victory Pocket for that use. Its exit pupil is only marginally bigger and something about the optical design of the Papilio gives it poor transmission (even in the version II), so it is a bit dim even in bright light. Other reverse-porros (e.g. Nikon 8x25 ProStaff) are brighter than the Papilio, but I don't think they'd really improve on the Victory, especially given their narrow FOV that is not very sharp off-axis. The one model that stands out as an exception to this is the B&L/Bushnell 7x26 Custom/Elite line. It has a reasonably wide field that is of quite good quality, and it has decent transmission and a better than average exit pupil. My favorite version (for having best close focus and being most compact) was the multicoated B&L model that was available right before the switch to the bulky plastic (and later metal) housing.

The Victory has quite good close focus (mine are <6 ft), but I guess the paintings you are wanting to see must be mounted high on walls or in ceilings, or else I presume you'd walk closer. If you need something with excellent transmission, a bigger exit pupil, and with a wide and well-corrected off-axis view, I think you'll have to step up to something like the Swarovski 8x32 EL SV.

...On another note, while I'm sure you have tried them, after several years of use I have come to appreciate more and more the versatility and convenience of the Canon 12x36 IS III. Along with the Victory Pocket, the Canon is out of its case and available at all times for looks out the window or quick trips into the yard to view the various wild life in my neighborhood...

Oh, I certainly appreciate the potential utility of the Canon IS models, such as the 12x36 III, for many users (which is why I included mention of them), but I've thus far resisted buying one for myself because I tend to be more ID oriented than watching oriented, and when I do watch, I like my wide-angle scope on a good head and tripod.

best,

--AP
 
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Alexis,

Thanks and sorry about the long walk off a short pier. What was I thinking? While it makes sense to carry discretely at larger sporting events- football, baseball, basketball, boxing-where the Pocket excels, in the benign museum environment as you point out there is no limit other than what I can physically carry and what will fit through the front door. To rationalize and indulge in some psychological self defense, previously I have read very few comments which mention "good for museum viewing" and all have been in connection only with compacts sporting reasonable FOV. Next museum trip, I'm sorely tempted to take the 8x56 Night Owls. I'll try to get a tripod past security as well. This is going to be a blast.

Regards,

Mike
 
Alexis,

Thanks and sorry about the long walk off a short pier. What was I thinking? While it makes sense to carry discretely at larger sporting events- football, baseball, basketball, boxing-where the Pocket excels, in the benign museum environment as you point out there is no limit other than what I can physically carry and what will fit through the front door. To rationalize and indulge in some psychological self defense, previously I have read very few comments which mention "good for museum viewing" and all have been in connection only with compacts sporting reasonable FOV. Next museum trip, I'm sorely tempted to take the 8x56 Night Owls. I'll try to get a tripod past security as well. This is going to be a blast.

Regards,

Mike

Ha! No worries. Sounds good except that you _will_ run into problems trying to get a tripod into many museums. Even when photography is permitted, many museums require professional photographers to have special permits to take reproduction-quality images, and the tripod is the signature equipment of such professionals (You won't be able to explain that your bins don't take pictures). Also, museum staff worry that tripods will get in the way of other visitors. Maybe you could fashion a hide clamp to attach to the side of one of those folding chairs that many museums now provide for visitors who can't stand for long periods of time.

--AP
 
The binoculars I would consider are the Swarovski EL SV 8.5x42, Zeiss Victory SF 8x42 (which was designed by the designers of the EL SV), the Zeiss Victory Pocket 8x25 (although it works better for people wearing eyeglasses) and the Swarovski CL B Companion 8x30.

The Leica Ultravid BL 8x42 is wonderful to hold due to its streamlined design and leather grip, but optically outclassed. Also, in a humid climate like Singapore it might develop fungus.

Nikon also makes alpha-class binoculars (the EDG line).

There’s no reason to limit yourself to one manufacturer unless one is significantly better at support in your country. Swarovski’s has the best reputation but I’ve always had great support from Leica USA. Zeiss support I found disappointing (12 weeks to repair a loose screw in my 1-year old 8x42 HT).
 
Singapore has some really neat birds to see, and some of my favourites can be seen without too much difficulty. It's a brilliant place for the more casual birdwatcher. I have had the pleasure of using my brother's 8.5x42 SV, a friend's 10x42 Noctivid and my own older Zeiss glasses in Singapore and have enjoyed all of them tremendously. One of my best birding memories is getting a great view of a male crimson sunbird that landed not far away from me in the Botanic Gardens. I had my "old faithful" 10x40 P model Dialyt with me at the time and the view of that stunningly coloured bird against the deep green background was just fantastic, though it lasted only about 5 to 6 seconds before it zipped away, alas.

The answer to your question #1 is that you should test the products of all three as extensively as possible, then purchase what you are happiest with (optically and handling). If you intend to use your binoculars hard, after sales service/support can be a very important consideration too. If you can afford more than one, and the two (or more :eek!:) you like best happen to be from different manufacturers, so be it. Many folks tend to prefer the view offered by one manufacturer over the others, but not all. A lot depends on you really, how they look to your eyes, how they fit in your hands. When you are considering such high dollar items the customer is definitely king!

Your question #2 is as you mention very subjective. I agree the richness/intensity of the colours shown by the Noctivid makes for an extremely attractive image, although funnily enough, colour rendition is not as important for most of my own birding, which involves scanning for small black shapes against the sky. I've noted more than one person coming to binoculars from a photography background has seemed to prefer the Leica image. I have tried the HT series (8x42 and 10x54) on only one occasion. The brightness of the 8x42 was very impressive, but in Singapore absolute brightness is not as important as it can be in other parts of the world (unless you are trying to spot owls, nightjars, etc). Zeiss's premier birding model is the SF series which I'm surprised is not available in Singapore - it certainly ought to be. The 8.5x42 SV is (as already mentioned by others) a superb all rounder with great build quality. The excellent edge sharpness works really well for me and I find its ease of use, eye placement etc. very good. You have mentioned getting blind spots "quite often" and experiencing a little dizziness with yours, which would concern me. It might pay to spend 15-20 minutes or so trying different eye cup and IPD settings to find out what suits your eyes best.
 
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