Where is it made? (1 Viewer)

I've read a couple different forum threads that the conquest HD is made in Japan and others state it is made in Germany. Only some components are assembled in Germany so that is enough to have it stamped "Made in Germany"....

I just bought some 10x42 conquest HD's a couple weeks ago, they say made in Germany. Does this mean some assembly happened in Germany but the majority of parts were made and sourced in Japan?

Its not a huge deal to me just really curious. Does zeiss make any of their optics 100% in house, does any optics manufacturer make any of their optics 100% in house? swaro, meopta, leica....

I don't think so.....and they aren't telling....

The glass is a merchant market item, suppliers such as Hoya or Schott offer many formulations, the lens design process begins with those glass catalogs.
Zeiss and Schott are both owned by the Zeiss Foundation, but they operate independently so Schott will happily sell to Leice or Swaro.
The supply chain for optics is convoluted, with lots of very low profile suppliers, including design shops, mold makers, lens makers etc.
The end product brands may not have been involved in the production at all.

So your question really opens a door to a swamp of uncertainty, where the specifics of the 'country of origin' rules are actually the least of the concerns.

I guess I should glad if I get a good sample nowadays. Most of my glass are archived or earlier models now (slightly upgraded), and with just two new models.

Andy W.

dries1 said:

I guess I should glad if I get a good sample nowadays. Most of my glass are archived or earlier models now (slightly upgraded), and with just two new models.

Andy W.

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Well, your collection may have legacy qualities, binoculars made before lowest possible cost led to the outsourcing of much of the production.

It seems to me that this process is totally destructive of brand value, as the brand no longer has much relation to the manufacturing.
Swaro has sidestepped that problem, their generous service policy defuses potential anxiety on this score. I'm less optimistic about Zeiss, they are just barging ahead with outsourcing, oblivious to the impact on the brand.

So are you saying that certain companies, if they continued to manufacture products in the home country would drive the costs way too high, in essence out of reach for many consumers?

Swarovski, besides crystal and binoculars, (pardon my knowledge of them as a company) what do they produce?

Perhaps only small companies will produce high end optics in the long run.

Andy W.

I have visited the factories of Leica, Meopta, Swarovski and Zeiss in the past years a number of times. What I have seen and heard is the following:
- Leica makes apart from binoculars and observation telescopes also all kinds of optical equipment for the medical community like advanced microscopical equipment (like hosptitals and dentists) etc. It also has made optical equipment for the military either by itself or in cooperation with other companies (one example is the development of the Vector, a very expensive military optical device). Part of its production is in Wetzlar-Germany and another part in the Leica factory in Portugal. Some consumers have the emotional feeling that the quality of the Portugal production would not be on the Wetzlar level ,but that I consider as prejudice and is not in accordance with the facts.
- Meopta ia a very large optical company making binoculars and observation telescopes and a vast variety of other optical en opto-electronic equipment for hunters, the military etc. The size of the company is very large. It used to make optics also for other companies and I am very sure that some Leica and Zeiss telescopes were made there in the past.
- Swarovski is part of the very large Tyrolit company,you can read about it in my history of Swarovski on the WEB-site of House of Outdoor. Binoculars is in that large company a fairly small part. Nevertheless it is a fairly well size optical company. The company also makes or has made military optical equipment, but the size of it is unclear to me. Binoculars and telescopes were all made in Absam, Austria.
- Zeiss is als a very large company and binoculars and observation telescopes are only a small part of the company and the size of it is growing smaller compared to other production lines as far as I know. If I am well-informed the military production of optical equipment stopped not long ago. Zeiss recently made the choice to outsource some of the binocular lines to Japan and China. The Conquests are made in Japan and the Terra's in China. The SF and HT were still made in Germany. That Zeiss has a very wide range of companies working for them is not strange, since during World War-2 a lot of Europena optical companies came under Zeiss wings, so their were strong ties all over.

All optical companies mentioned buy their optical glass components from Hoya, Schott etc.
This is the situation as far as I know.
Gijs van Ginkel

In addition to Gijs's contribution I would like to add that it is clear to me that some, perhaps all of the alphas and probably most other brands don't have the computer controlled lathes necessary to machine the focus mechanisms. The quantities they require are tiny compared with what these lathes can turn out so investing in machines like this that will be unused much of the time doesn't make sense. Because of the requirement for only small quantities not every machine shop is interested in supplying. So thats the focus mechanism.

Moulded components such as eyecups and rubber armour are also bought-in from specialist companies as well as accessories like rainguards, objective caps, cases and straps.

This has always been the situation.

Lee

In addition also to Lee's and my contribution one has to realise that the binocular and telescope bodies will be designed by the binocular companies, but the making of it is also generally outsourced to companies that are specialised in this kind of work. The finishing touch may, of course if necessary, made by the binocular companies themselves.
Gijs van Ginkel

With my post 9 I was a little too fast, since I have seen that for example very complicated housings of gunsights and/or the bodies of rangefinder binoculars were designed and made in house at Zeiss and Meopta and that could very well be true for the other companies as well.
Gijs van Ginkel

Gijs van Ginkel said:

I have visited the factories of Leica, Meopta, Swarovski and Zeiss in the past years a number of times. What I have seen and heard is the following:
- Leica makes apart from binoculars and observation telescopes also all kinds of optical equipment for the medical community like advanced microscopical equipment (like hosptitals and dentists) etc. It also has made optical equipment for the military either by itself or in cooperation with other companies (one example is the development of the Vector, a very expensive military optical device). Part of its production is in Wetzlar-Germany and another part in the Leica factory in Portugal. Some consumers have the emotional feeling that the quality of the Portugal production would not be on the Wetzlar level ,but that I consider as prejudice and is not in accordance with the facts.

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Leica microscopes are made by Leica Microsystems, which is a different company than the Leica Camera that makes binoculars, or the Leica Geosystems that makes surveying equipment. All three are the result of the splitting of Leitz. The Leica trademark is actually owned by Leica Microsystems.

Leitz's military optics were primarily Wild+Leitz Heerbrugg in Switzerland and ELCAN (Ernst Leitz Canada), that designed the famous Noctilux lens. ELCAN was sold to Raytheon years ago. I don't think Leica Camera has any military business any more. They do have a thriving cinema lens business, and via their acquisition of Sinar, a large-format photography business.

The Leica Vector is a military rangefinder that was designed in Switzerland by the former Wild company that eventually became part of Leica Geosystems. It was spun off as Vectronix and acquired by French jet engine manufacturer and defense contractor Safran. Some of the technology found its way into the Geovid rangefinders, but they are separate companies.

Gijs van Ginkel said:

With my post 9 I was a little too fast, since I have seen that for example very complicated housings of gunsights and/or the bodies of rangefinder binoculars were designed and made in house at Zeiss and Meopta and that could very well be true for the other companies as well.
Gijs van Ginkel

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But the main point is that binoculars and their accessories have always been produced by a combination of in-house design and manufacture, in-house design and sub-contracted manufacture and out-sourced components and accessories.

We know a little more about this process due to the internet but it is not new or unprecedented. The entering of brands such as Zeiss and Leica into lower price levels using out-sourced components and manufacturing can be seen as diluting the brand but equally it is no good having a brand of 100% purity that is dead, and when market research conducted in the States strongly suggests the bulk of the market bino market there is in models priced at $500 max it is clear why the alphas have moved into this price bracket. Naturally Leica will be hoping that folks who buy Trinovids will be tempted up the range via Ultravids to Noctivids and Zeiss similarly with Terra>Conquest>Victory.

Lee

It was very surprising to me to see that lenses in the million dollar range were made in France by firms that I didn't know made hand aspheric large optics or any optics at all.

In the U.S. some of the even more expensive optics were made at the Boston university Harvard outfit.

Some of the glass material made in China possibly by the well known names is not very good and is rejected fairly regularly as not up to standard.
The reason China is used is I think only to do with cost.

The Wild Falconer 98mm f/1.4 lenses were I think actually made in Switzerland, but components may have been outsourced also.
They also made a 98mm f/1, which I didn't have.
There were some similar lenses around 240mm focal length, but not sure if ever actually made.

Sometimes it comes down to an individual master optician outside the companies who is the only one making the very best optics.

There was an article in A.P. recently detailing Canon's master master optician who made some of the largest Canon lenses.

Leica also has these top individuals who make the 50mm f/1 lenses.

There may be only ten or twenty such masters world wide.

However, Sony are proud of their machines that make 1/40th or 1/50th wave optics for some of their lenses.

P.S.
I know of 3 current master opticians in the U.K., 1 in Australia, a few in Holland.
There are several in the U.S. Some in France, Austria, Germany.
Probably some in Meopta.
Some in Japan, Russia, China maybe.
There are likely to be others in other countries.

So maybe 50 in total.

I am not sure if any are involved with binoculars, which are pretty simple devices.

etudiant said:

It seems to me that this process is totally destructive of brand value, as the brand no longer has much relation to the manufacturing.

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I agree, and have watched this going on with many other sorts of products lately as well (even beer), despite the fact that advertising is expensive and entirely oriented around the brand name. So how can it be effective once no one knows what the brand says about the product anymore?

This strategy must have large emerging markets like China as a target, full of naive consumers who simply trust established (Western) brand names with no experience of the level of quality to expect. Of course in the end I still think it's myopic and destructive, but everyone focuses on the short term these days, even investors.

I know of 3 current master opticians in the U.K., 1 in Australia, a few in Holland.
There are several in the U.S. Some in France, Austria, Germany.
Probably some in Meopta.
Some in Japan, Russia, China maybe.
There are likely to be others in other countries.

So maybe 50 in total.

I am not sure if any are involved with binoculars, which are pretty simple devices.

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Are these gentlemen actually working on consumer binoculars given today's mass production? I'd guess they maybe do reconnaissance satellite lenses or super expensive scientific equipment most of their time? Well okay, and maybe some WX once in a while.

Bit like the watch industry maybe? Most movements are (very good quality and accurate) industrial series production. A LOT of the (very high quality) parts coming from China including those in "Swiss made" watches.

I prefer openess. Just tell me where it is coming from and I'm fine. My "designed in California" branded laptop I'm typing this on now has been manufactured in China and Taiwan. That's okay to me. I just don't want to be told some "stories".
For my taste both marketing and pricing have gone a bit too far sometimes.

Although there are a few master opticians, I am not sure if any of them have the depth of experience and abilities of say James Baker in the U.S. or Horace Dall in the U.K.

Certainly the current British master opticians don't have the abilities of Dall.

There are fewer optical technicians now because of computer technology and there is little reason to spend a lifetime creating optical wonders.

Computers do most things now making humans almost redundant.

It is in fact difficult to find anybody capable of making the finest quality optics, worldwide.

In astronomy, the digital images taken with 14 inch scopes in the back garden are better than the Palomar 200 inch scope photos of not so long ago. All down to computers.

Gijs, thanks for the history info, good discussion.

Sebzwo
"Bit like the watch industry maybe? Most movements are (very good quality and accurate) industrial series production. A LOT of the (very high quality) parts coming from China including those in "Swiss made" watches".

In regards to watches, my fathers Omega Constellation built in 1962, performs as it should, a chronometer, Omega made it 's own movements then, now it is a swatch movement. I guess it is a matter of time, more demand, more outsourcing required to produce the volume.

I wonder with a company like Zeiss, Leica and Swarovski if they produced less premium glass than present, 15 years ago, sheer volume numbers, and what the difference might be.


Andy W.

Sebzwo said:

Bit like the watch industry maybe? Most movements are (very good quality and accurate) industrial series production. A LOT of the (very high quality) parts coming from China including those in "Swiss made" watches.

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The watch industry is probably a trend setter for the binocular market.
Iirc, the sector was completely transformed by the arrival of electronics. Essentially everyone except Rolex went bankrupt. Brands such as Bulova, Longines or Omega were rolled up into holding companies such as Swatch, LVMH or Richemont. These new owners outsourced the mechanicals manufacturing to industry suppliers, mostly from Asia and shifted the resources saved to marketing and branding.
That effort has been astonishingly successful, people still believe that watches are made by Swiss craftsmen even though the timekeeping apparatus is most likely factory made in China. Fine watches that predates this upheaval are now classified as 'legacy' or 'heirloom', good luck trying to get repairs, as the needed skills are disappearing with the retirement of the older craftsmen. Why people still pay high prices for these modern day facsimiles is a mystery to me, but I'm sure the suppliers of alpha optics are fully aware of this luxury watch industry experience.

Hi,

the Conquest HD line is made in Japan by Kamakura Koki (which is a good thing) and there might be just some final touches done in Germany to warrant the Made in Germany label (which is not worth a lot due to the regulations being what they are).

Joachim

Is there any binocular made in Germany?

Really made in Germany.

Not just enough to plaster, "Made in Germany" on the product and have reps say, "It's made in Germany" over and over again as they did with the latest Conquest, but really made there.

I'm not talking about screws or cases, I'm talking about the frame, the lenses, the focussing mechanisms, and all other important internals being manufactured from raw materials (which can be sourced anywhere).

For that matter... do companies such as Kamakura Koki outsource? If so, to where?