Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
More discoveries. NEW: Zeiss Victory SF 32

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Coronavirus and wildlife trade

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 17:15   #1
dalat
.
 
dalat's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,557
Coronavirus and wildlife trade

Like Ebola and SARS, the current Coronavirus epidemic seems to have its origin in people eating wildlife. In China, authorities have started to clamp down on wildlife markets, trading and farming.

Will the Coronavirus epidemic have a positive side effect on wildlife conservation by putting people in Asia off eating wildlife and using them in medicine? Will the authorities take lasting actions?
Or will it all revert back soon to "normal" once the current excitment has calmed?

Last edited by dalat : Saturday 29th February 2020 at 17:46.
dalat is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 17:31   #2
PYRTLE
Registered User
 
PYRTLE's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: North Norfolk
Posts: 9,071
Unless it is scientifically proved and traced to a species - No! Bushmeat in Africa, Songbirds in Cyprus, Reptiles in Australia by some indigenous and finally Possums and Turtles in North America. All wild animals from across the globe and entrenched in various cultures let alone need for food. I recall a wacky theory that the AIDS virus was caused by mans' association with domestic animals.

Sadly, I dont think attitudes will change in China.
PYRTLE is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 18:46   #3
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by PYRTLE View Post
Unless it is scientifically proved and traced to a species - No! Bushmeat in Africa, Songbirds in Cyprus, Reptiles in Australia by some indigenous and finally Possums and Turtles in North America. All wild animals from across the globe and entrenched in various cultures let alone need for food. I recall a wacky theory that the AIDS virus was caused by mans' association with domestic animals.

Sadly, I dont think attitudes will change in China.
I thought it had been linked to Bats?

It amazes me how a country which is so technically advanced, can be so retarded in other regards. I once went for a 'look see' in a Chinese traditional pharmacy in Macau, it was shocking, they caght me filming and I was escorted from the premises. Everything was there from Sand Dollars to Seahorses, Sea Cucumbers, Starfish, Pangolin scales and bits of other things I couldn't identify.
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Saturday 29th February 2020 at 18:50.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 20:24   #4
PYRTLE
Registered User
 
PYRTLE's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: North Norfolk
Posts: 9,071
[quote=andyadcock;3964061]I thought it had been linked to Bats?
[/QUOTE
I knew it had been traced back to an animal and seafood market. Wouldn't be at all surprised that live bats were being traded as food.

Last edited by PYRTLE : Saturday 29th February 2020 at 20:40. Reason: Typo
PYRTLE is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 20:29   #5
dantheman
Bah humbug
 
dantheman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 13,219
Blog Entries: 2
I'm sure I've read that the bat story is a myth - there is a photo of a woman eating a bat with chopsticks taken elsewhere in Oceania (?) a few years previously which has been doing the rounds.
__________________
stithiansreservoirbirding.blogspot.co.uk/ - last update 10/11/15 - really rather remarkable still!!!
dantheman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 20:29   #6
RafaelMatias
Registered User
 
RafaelMatias's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 3,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
I thought it had been linked to Bats?
I think bats are suspected, but I haven't seen any confirmation of this, and ultimately might not be correct.
RafaelMatias is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 20:51   #7
Bananafishbones
Incoherently Rambling .....
 
Bananafishbones's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Cheshire UK
Posts: 6,976
Dirty bastards
__________________
Latest Garden Life Bird: No.81 Ring necked Parakeet , Latest UK Life Bird: No.256 Dusky Thrush, Latest World Bird: No.2240 Eastern Bonellis Warbler
Bfbs outdoor Ramblings - come inside and have a peek!
Flickr images
Bananafishbones is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2010 2011 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 20:58   #8
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 20,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by PYRTLE View Post
I recall a wacky theory that the AIDS virus was caused by mans' association with domestic animals.
AIDS came from people butchering Chimpanzees, and/or eating undercooked Chimpanzee meat - Chimps are resistant to it, as the virus has circulated among them for a very long time. Worth noting that old cultures in Africa had a longstanding taboo on eating Chimps, but this was broken down by Western missionaries and modern wealthy urban meat demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
I thought it had been linked to Bats?
Bats, by way of pangolins. The current coronavirus has a 95% match to a bat coronavirus, and a 99% match to one found in pangolins that they think originally reached pangolins from bats.

Last edited by Nutcracker : Saturday 29th February 2020 at 21:00.
Nutcracker is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 21:17   #9
RafaelMatias
Registered User
 
RafaelMatias's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 3,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post

Bats, by way of pangolins. The current coronavirus has a 95% match to a bat coronavirus, and a 99% match to one found in pangolins that they think originally reached pangolins from bats.
Those were "preliminary conclusions" that were dismissed/disproved 3 days ago, and it seems they resulted from a communication mistake.That was put forward in a paper just published in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00548-w

In CNN, about 1 month ago, I heard the usual panel's doctor explaining how the first suspected case in China goes back to the first days of December and this was a guy who hadn't been in the famous market, making this even more puzzling.

EDIT: the text I first posted was a mess! I hope it's fixed now. Sorry.

Last edited by RafaelMatias : Saturday 29th February 2020 at 21:20.
RafaelMatias is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 29th February 2020, 21:42   #10
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 20,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaelMatias View Post
Those were "preliminary conclusions" that were dismissed/disproved 3 days ago, and it seems they resulted from a communication mistake.
Looks like I'm out of date!!
Nutcracker is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st March 2020, 08:58   #11
MJB
Registered User
 
MJB's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holt
Posts: 4,948
[quote=PYRTLE;3964119]
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
I thought it had been linked to Bats?
[/QUOTE
I knew it had been traced back to an animal and seafood market. Wouldn't be at all surprised that live bats were being traded as food.
There's an article in the Sunday Times 01 March about fruit bats being sold in Indonesian markets, as a commonplace item, the butchery being carried out using the same knives as for all other meat on the stalls....
MJB
__________________
The fuzziness of all supposedly absolute taxonomic distinctions - Stephen Jay Gould (1977) "Ever Since Darwin: Reflections in Natural History".
Species and subspecies are but a convenient fiction - Kees van Deemter (2010), "In praise of vagueness". Biology is messy
MJB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st March 2020, 11:13   #12
Borjam
Registered User
BF Supporter 2020

 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Algorta Spain
Posts: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
I thought it had been linked to Bats?

It amazes me how a country which is so technically advanced, can be so retarded
in other regards.
Come to a much smaller country like Spain, visit a modern city and one of the remote rural areas and you won't believe it's actually the same country nor the same century even :)

Quote:
Everything was there from Sand Dollars to Seahorses, Sea Cucumbers, Starfish, Pangolin scales and bits of other things I couldn't identify.
I guess the worst problems are wild mammals because, well, we are also mammals. In places with a rich seafood eating tradition lots of marine inverts are routinely consumed like bivalves, gasteropods, crustaceans obviously, even cnidarians (anemones in Southern Spain, called "ortiguillas"), echinoderms (urchins and sea cucumbers, I haven't heard about eating starfish but who knows) and, to my amazement, tunicates in Chile (they call them "piure").

The main risk with some filter feeding invertebrates are cyanobacteria toxins or fecal bacteria that don't affect the molluscs themselves. Otherwise invertebrates are too different from us.

But wild mammals... Just remember that diseases such as smallpox are believed to be originated from cattle.
Borjam is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 1st March 2020, 12:11   #13
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,477
Advisory - graphic images to follow

[quote=MJB;3964235]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PYRTLE View Post

There's an article in the Sunday Times 01 March about fruit bats being sold in Indonesian markets, as a commonplace item, the butchery being carried out using the same knives as for all other meat on the stalls....
MJB
This is a heads up to those of a delicate disposition. My next post will contain graphic images from a market in Sulawesi, Indonesia.
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Sunday 1st March 2020 at 12:25.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st March 2020, 12:16   #14
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,477
Graphic images

The 'traditional' market at Tomohon in N Sulawesi.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SDC11261.JPG
Views:	57
Size:	509.1 KB
ID:	719794  Click image for larger version

Name:	SDC11263.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	160.7 KB
ID:	719796  Click image for larger version

Name:	SDC11262.JPG
Views:	57
Size:	626.1 KB
ID:	719797  Click image for larger version

Name:	Trip 08-09 005.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	252.2 KB
ID:	719798  
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st March 2020, 13:21   #15
Mysticete
Registered User
 
Mysticete's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,854
The difference here between former measures is that the current Coronavirus outbreak is having fairly severe economic and health consequences for the country. The Chinese government doesn't really specifically care about endangered species, other than public image consequences. So enforcement of existing laws on the wildlife trade are not a priority. China DOES care about being an economic powerhouse, and shutdowns of trade or manufacturing slow downs due to illness, and being an authoritarian state they can snuff this out with the right motivation.
__________________
World: 1195, ABA: 628
Last Lifer: Connecticut Warbler
Last ABA: Connecticut Warbler
Mammal: 233 Herp: 174
Mysticete is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st March 2020, 13:27   #16
PYRTLE
Registered User
 
PYRTLE's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: North Norfolk
Posts: 9,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
The 'traditional' market at Tomohon in N Sulawesi.
What is / was #2 please?
PYRTLE is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st March 2020, 13:28   #17
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by PYRTLE View Post
What is / was #2 please?
Primate sp, probably a Macaque of some sort, 3 are dogs.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th March 2020, 10:33   #18
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Switzerland/Poland
Posts: 4,299
Time to put international pressure on China to permanently ban and enforce the ban on wildlife trade. Unless the world wants to be paralyzed every few years with another SARS or COVID-19 like virus.

SARS was definitely traced to civets. Even if it is unclear whether pangolins or bats are the origin in the current epidemics, it is clear some wild species. There are thousands of wild animal viruses which could potentially jump to humans.

There are naturally other factors, for example China's combination of habit of eating wild animals, relative wealth which means that it is a disposable luxury not a necessity, Chinese ability to enforce such bans, and high human population density, which spreads viruses.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th March 2020, 12:13   #19
Bubbs

 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
The 'traditional' market at Tomohon in N Sulawesi.
Good post Andy.
Bubbs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th March 2020, 12:50   #20
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbs View Post
Good post Andy.
I was very concious of not being around in the event that they actually killed any dogs on site whilst I was there but they didn't, not that I saw anyway.

The animals are brutally, battered to death, they say a fear hormone is realeased by killing this way which flavours the meat. Same in S Korea where dogs are hung by the neck and beaten to death, 21st century my arse.

It also happens in the villages away from tourists in Bali.
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Sunday 15th March 2020 at 13:04.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th March 2020, 16:20   #21
Bubbs

 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
I was very concious of not being around in the event that they actually killed any dogs on site whilst I was there but they didn't, not that I saw anyway.

The animals are brutally, battered to death, they say a fear hormone is realeased by killing this way which flavours the meat. Same in S Korea where dogs are hung by the neck and beaten to death, 21st century my arse.

It also happens in the villages away from tourists in Bali.
Unbelievable!
Bubbs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th March 2020, 16:32   #22
Bubbs

 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,666
There is a video on YouTube but it’s not easy watching “Asia’s scariest meat market”. Be warned.
Bubbs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th March 2020, 05:47   #23
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,477
Anyone who goes to Bali, should read this.

https://baliinformationguide.com/bal...t-controversy/
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 21st March 2020, 20:27   #24
dalat
.
 
dalat's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,557
I've still not read anything about the precise origine of the virus, but this recent paper concludes its an animal source: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0317175442.htm

Some actions seems to be taken now in China and Vietnam, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/environm...o-halt-trading
dalat is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 22nd March 2020, 08:31   #25
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 18,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalat View Post
I've still not read anything about the precise origine of the virus, but this recent paper concludes its an animal source: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0317175442.htm

Some actions seems to be taken now in China and Vietnam, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/environm...o-halt-trading
I remember the pitiful convoys of trucks, carrying dogs to Vietnam when we were in Laos together Florien.

I remember we could hear the trucks coming from some distance by the hopeless sounds of the animals and as the trucks went uphill, all the urine was spilling off the truck on to the road, awful trade.

You seem to have avoided the camera on this trip...........
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Bare-faced Bulbul trip1.JPG
Views:	46
Size:	1.05 MB
ID:	721816  Click image for larger version

Name:	rsz_vlcsnap-2020-03-22-09h45m10s647.png
Views:	42
Size:	151.2 KB
ID:	721817  
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Sunday 22nd March 2020 at 08:56.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Visiting E Asia - coronavirus dantheman Information Wanted 18 Sunday 16th February 2020 10:10
Illegal wildlife trade - $30 billion??? njlarsen Conservation 1 Thursday 24th November 2011 04:18
Baghdad's trade in wildlife anything but tame (yahoo news) NicoleB Live Bird News from around the World 0 Thursday 27th May 2010 18:41
Huge INTERPOL investigation into illegal wildlife trade across 18 countries rockfowl Mammals 0 Saturday 13th March 2010 09:58
Illegal Trade in Birds and Wildlife - Naples A CHAPLIN Conservation 1 Sunday 21st October 2007 07:15

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.28531003 seconds with 38 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 21:31.