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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

help with binocular choice (1 Viewer)

It's now down to the new Zeiss conquest and the Pentax dcf ed. I've been going back and forth with a few emails with a person from optics4birding.com. I used the comparison chart they have there and the pentax comes out on top. You input your ratings in each category based on individual preference and the Pentax beats out the zeiss by one point. The salesperson prefers the zeiss and he also recommended the kowa genesis. He said the new zeiss, pentax dcf, kowa genesis are the best of mid range 8x32's. The Pentax strikes a sentamental chord with me, as my very first and only 32mm camera (purchased when I was in college) was a used Ricoh and I still have it. Once I saw that Pentax is a division of the Ricoh corp. I sort of thought...wow that would be nice to own something Ricoh again. This may all sound a bit corny to you, but I am somewhat loyal like that. This is why most of my binoculars have been Leupold b/c I stick with a brand I like...just wish they still were making the golden ring line. Just waiting to here back from the person at optics4birding and I will make my final decision either tonight or tomorrow.
what do you think of this pentax model?

Sentiment counts for a lot, so feel comfy with your choice. These are all good glasses.
Still, if you have a good dialog with the Optics4birding sales rep, why not have him ship you both and return the one you do not want. That way you can make a final decision based on your own experience, rather than charts and tables.
 
hmmm...that's a thought. I'm inclined to just pick one and stick with it though. I can't imagine being so turned off by one of these models to the point of buyer's remorse (since they are all so highly rated). Also, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable handling a pair I won't buy and then having to deal with a return. If I dropped it or damaged it in some way or if the return package didn't make it all the way back I'd be responsible for it. Just wish there was a store I could go into that had all of these. But, since there isn't I'll need to take a chance and order the one I think will be best suited for me. I could always return it if I truly hate it.
 
That's of no importance. The going price is inclusive everything. After that point it's plus 400%.
Jan

Yes, lot's of sticky fingers along the way from factory to the end consumer. But the OEM still takes the lion's share of the profit. The top tier OEMs have alot invested in their image so control end consumer pricing in their dealer agreements by enforcing MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail price) and MAP (minimum advertised price), rebate and trade-in programs, and dealer status/territorial exclusivity.
 
hmmm...that's a thought. I'm inclined to just pick one and stick with it though. I can't imagine being so turned off by one of these models to the point of buyer's remorse (since they are all so highly rated). Also, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable handling a pair I won't buy and then having to deal with a return. If I dropped it or damaged it in some way or if the return package didn't make it all the way back I'd be responsible for it. Just wish there was a store I could go into that had all of these. But, since there isn't I'll need to take a chance and order the one I think will be best suited for me. I could always return it if I truly hate it.

First apologies to you Beth as my previous comments have apparently hijacked your thread. The whole point of my comments is that paying more does not ensure you will get the "best" or even a good specimen of binocular many feel are the "best".

That said, if you have narrowed your choice down between a Zeiss and a Pentax of roughly equal cost, choose the Zeiss no doubt about it. It has far more cachet and better warranty protection so will retains more of its absolute value should you ever need to sell them.
 
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I used the comparison chart they have there and the pentax comes out on top. You input your ratings in each category based on individual preference and the Pentax beats out the zeiss by one point.
Anyone got any tips on how to make the Zeiss score more highly than the Pentax?
 
First apologies to you Beth as my previous comments have apparently hijacked your thread. The whole point of my comments is that paying more does not ensure you will get the "best" or even a good specimen of binocular many feel are the "best".

That said, if you have narrowed your choice down between a Zeiss and a Pentax of roughly equal cost, choose the Zeiss no doubt about it. It has far more cachet and better warranty protection so will retains more of its absolute value should you ever never to sell them.

that's a very good point. I did notice that the warranty for the Pentax is only a year :( Plus, it did cross my mind that the Zeiss would have higher resale value ...things to consider there if for some reason I needed to sell it down the road (not planning for that though). I don't want to drive myself nuts with this purchase however and I'm getting there haha...just want to buy one already. They just told me there is a $100 rebate on the zeiss so that's got me thinking...arrrgh...I hate these types of decisions ;)
 
Hi RJM

Some interesting points in your post. Your remark about retail price of Euro-alphas being 4xproduction cost appears to be a sort of criticism. But perhaps this sort of mark-up also applies to non-alphas, they just start from a lower production cost maybe.

A four-times mark up sounds a lot but its not really:

The factory needs a good profit to pay for R & D, replace old machinery, fund new manufacturing techniques, pay for environmental policies.

The importer / local subsidiary needs a profit.

The retailer needs a profit.

And binoculars rarely get sold at full retail list price anyway.​

On top of this some brands can charge a brand premium. Whether you go along with this depends on your disposable income and your spending priorities.

As it happens I drive a Skoda car, which as any European driver will tell you is not very high up the car Food-Chain LOL. On the other hand I choose Zeiss bins and Troubadoris is a Leica girl.

Lee

Now the thread is becoming interesting. And much more interesting that for a change it is not a poor, porro owning journalist with tendonitis fingers broaching the subject of alpha costs, but rather a presumably well-to-do Japanese investment banker who owns two Kowa scopes and a dude ranch in Texas.

Only a dealer like Jan could tell us the mark up on alphas, and he wouldn't dare! But when you see demo 8x32 FLs going for $750 at Cameraland and Nikon 8x32 EDG I's selling for $999 with a free camera worth $500 at EO, and Fuji 12x60 HBs for $269, it does make me wonder.

Here's my experience with wholesale/retail, which will hopefully shed some light. After I finally got my BA (I know, it should have been a BS), the next month, the Gulf War began. The university where I expected to get a job wasn't hiring and neither was any other company in the area since the war had caused a "communicative panic," as my old prof called it, as uncertainly always does, as the fiscal cliff is now causing, so the only job I could get was selling $1,500 HEPA filter vacuum cleaners called Filter Queens.

I initially received 10% on each sale and there was plenty of wiggle room on the selling price, but the lower the price, the smaller your take, so naturally the sales people tried to bilk the customers for as much as they could.

After I sold 10 Filter Queens, I got a Top Dealer award, which still sits proudly on my mantle shelf (or where my mantle shelf would be if I could afford a fireplace) and my take went up to 20%.

I found out from the dealer one day when he was drunk (which was quite often) that his cost from the distributor in Altoona was $600. So here he was selling a vacuum cleaner for $1,500 that cost $600. Then he'd pay me 10% of sale price, which came to a measly $150 (I had to eat the gas and use my own car, and they send me as far as east as Lewistown - could have visited Proud Papa - and as far north as Rebamcentiresville so I can't even imagine what my take home was).

Now he did rent a large studio room off North Atherton (the main business "drag" on the north end of town, which is now the "boom" area where I live). So that must have cost a pretty penny. Eventually he got behind in the rent and I saw his phone bill - for the telemarketers to call and set up the appointments for us - and that was $3,000, though I don't know how many months the bill was for. He had overhead, a drinking problem, and a mistress, so there probably wasn't much leftover for his wife and daughter.

We eventually started working out of one guy's truck (who's infant daughter was later adopted by a friend of mine when his wife took off), and we started making "cold calls," selling door to door.

The poor folks always invited me, even fed me, but the rich folks, as soon as they got their free knife set, kicked me out, something literally, one old couple threw the vacuum claener out the door and threw the hose at me.

The telemarketers said the "presentation" would only take 15 minutes, but it was open ended, you keep selling them on the merits of the Filter Queen against whatever they had until they either fall asleep and you give them a post-hypnotic suggestion to sign on the dotted line - that worked twice, I kid you not, once with a trucker and once with a retiree - or you find something of value they have to trade in to lower their cost. One family traded in an old car and got $200 off the price of the vacuum cleaner. Old vacuum cleaners, lawn mowers, TV sets, you name it, I took it.

Before they call me Rambling Brock Eliot, I will come to my point, and that is, never buy at the retail price. Always dicker. If an item ain't selling, it's better for a store to sell at less profit than to let it sit. If they are flying off the shelves like hotcakes, the item is probably already reduced as much as it's going to get.

Hope that helps.

<B>
 
I believe Zeiss may have had a large part in designing the Pentax K mount (shared by Pentax and Ricoh cameras of a certain era) before they decided to work with Yashica (and Porsche) in designing the Contax RTS.

Could lack of tangible and coherent criteria for choice be the fly in the ointment of internet retail therapy?

I feel a very surreal year approaching...
 
hmmm...that's a thought. I'm inclined to just pick one and stick with it though. I can't imagine being so turned off by one of these models to the point of buyer's remorse (since they are all so highly rated). Also, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable handling a pair I won't buy and then having to deal with a return. If I dropped it or damaged it in some way or if the return package didn't make it all the way back I'd be responsible for it. Just wish there was a store I could go into that had all of these. But, since there isn't I'll need to take a chance and order the one I think will be best suited for me. I could always return it if I truly hate it.

Anna:

I like your choices, and the recommendation from Edude, is a very good
one. If you can try both out, and get out and use them, that is the very
best way to evaluate an optic.
Many here can give you ideas, but if you wear glasses, and other things do come into play.
I find it takes at least a week, to get used to a binocular.

Let us know how it turns out.

Jerry
 
Now the thread is becoming interesting. And much more interesting that for a change it is not a poor, porro owning journalist with tendonitis fingers broaching the subject of alpha costs, but rather a presumably well-to-do Japanese investment banker who owns two Kowa scopes and a dude ranch in Texas.

Brock, reading this is almost stalker-like scary. FYI, "investment banker" is sooo 2007. Me and all my fellow Master's of the Universe have moved on to the more trendy vocations of "residential real estate slum lord" and "shale oil tycoon." Please update your dossier accordingly.:king:
 
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Brock, reading this is almost stalker-like scary. FYI, "investment banker" is sooo yesterday. Me and all my fellow Master's of the Universe have moved on to the more trendy vocations of "residential real estate slum lord" and "shale oil tycoon." Please update your dossier accordingly.:king:

Duly noted! Since you are now a shale oil tycoon, I may interview you some day if you move to the states. I'm working on two stories for the next issue of Marcellus Business Central.

I thought you were moving to the U.S.? We got plenty of cheap, foreclosed real estate and as a part-time Texan, you already know about the shale gas & oil industry. There's actually a shortage of oil & gas industry workers in Texas, because many have gone to work at shale gas plays other than Eagle Ford, including the Marcellus here in PA.

Better not wait too long to immigrate, Texas is trying to secede from the union! You might find yourself A Man Without a Country.

Your advice to Annabeth about the warranty is sound. I can't believe that Pentax is only offering a year warranty. That's less than I got on my disposable razor! ;)

<B>
 
Regarding the Pentax warranty, on sport optics they offer no fault & does not give a time frame limit. The only caveat is it applies to optics purchased after 2006.


pentaximaging.com/support#!warranty-information

If you have a Cabelas within what you consider driving distance, it might be worth the drive to check out their selection. They do have Meopta, Minox & a few others you don't find at most sporting good stores don't have. Bottom line is that the biggest choice of bins will be in online.


If you can afford it, I would also suggest ordering the 2 most appealing contenders and trying them out together. I know you said you can't imagine not being turned off by one of the binoculars to a point of buyers remorse, but you would be surprised at times at how much the perfect bin on paper just doesn't do it for you.
 
Now the thread is becoming interesting. And much more interesting that for a change it is not a poor, porro owning journalist with tendonitis fingers broaching the subject of alpha costs, but rather a presumably well-to-do Japanese investment banker who owns two Kowa scopes and a dude ranch in Texas.

Only a dealer like Jan could tell us the mark up on alphas, and he wouldn't dare! But when you see demo 8x32 FLs going for $750 at Cameraland and Nikon 8x32 EDG I's selling for $999 with a free camera worth $500 at EO, and Fuji 12x60 HBs for $269, it does make me wonder.

Here's my experience with wholesale/retail, which will hopefully shed some light. After I finally got my BA (I know, it should have been a BS), the next month, the Gulf War began. The university where I expected to get a job wasn't hiring and neither was any other company in the area since the war had caused a "communicative panic," as my old prof called it, as uncertainly always does, as the fiscal cliff is now causing, so the only job I could get was selling $1,500 HEPA filter vacuum cleaners called Filter Queens.

I initially received 10% on each sale and there was plenty of wiggle room on the selling price, but the lower the price, the smaller your take, so naturally the sales people tried to bilk the customers for as much as they could.

After I sold 10 Filter Queens, I got a Top Dealer award, which still sits proudly on my mantle shelf (or where my mantle shelf would be if I could afford a fireplace) and my take went up to 20%.

I found out from the dealer one day when he was drunk (which was quite often) that his cost from the distributor in Altoona was $600. So here he was selling a vacuum cleaner for $1,500 that cost $600. Then he'd pay me 10% of sale price, which came to a measly $150 (I had to eat the gas and use my own car, and they send me as far as east as Lewistown - could have visited Proud Papa - and as far north as Rebamcentiresville so I can't even imagine what my take home was).

Now he did rent a large studio room off North Atherton (the main business "drag" on the north end of town, which is now the "boom" area where I live). So that must have cost a pretty penny. Eventually he got behind in the rent and I saw his phone bill - for the telemarketers to call and set up the appointments for us - and that was $3,000, though I don't know how many months the bill was for. He had overhead, a drinking problem, and a mistress, so there probably wasn't much leftover for his wife and daughter.

We eventually started working out of one guy's truck (who's infant daughter was later adopted by a friend of mine when his wife took off), and we started making "cold calls," selling door to door.

The poor folks always invited me, even fed me, but the rich folks, as soon as they got their free knife set, kicked me out, something literally, one old couple threw the vacuum claener out the door and threw the hose at me.

The telemarketers said the "presentation" would only take 15 minutes, but it was open ended, you keep selling them on the merits of the Filter Queen against whatever they had until they either fall asleep and you give them a post-hypnotic suggestion to sign on the dotted line - that worked twice, I kid you not, once with a trucker and once with a retiree - or you find something of value they have to trade in to lower their cost. One family traded in an old car and got $200 off the price of the vacuum cleaner. Old vacuum cleaners, lawn mowers, TV sets, you name it, I took it.

Before they call me Rambling Brock Eliot, I will come to my point, and that is, never buy at the retail price. Always dicker. If an item ain't selling, it's better for a store to sell at less profit than to let it sit. If they are flying off the shelves like hotcakes, the item is probably already reduced as much as it's going to get.

Hope that helps.

<B>

Brock,

Just ask and you get the answer. You don't have to fish or dare somebody.
The normal rate is 20% on nightvision, 25% on scopes and between 28 and 32% for bins. Considering we have for about 300.000,00 euro on stock in these articles, and all the other costs it's simply mathematics.
At the end of the year, depending on the total volume the bonus is from 4 to 8%.
According to your attitude to rich filthy people I would throw you out also, shortly followed by your free knives set.
Jan
 
It's now down to the new Zeiss conquest and the Pentax dcf ed. I've been going back and forth with a few emails with a person from optics4birding.com. I used the comparison chart they have there and the pentax comes out on top. You input your ratings in each category based on individual preference and the Pentax beats out the zeiss by one point. The salesperson prefers the zeiss and he also recommended the kowa genesis. He said the new zeiss, pentax dcf, kowa genesis are the best of mid range 8x32's. The Pentax strikes a sentamental chord with me, as my very first and only 32mm camera (purchased when I was in college) was a used Ricoh and I still have it. Once I saw that Pentax is a division of the Ricoh corp. I sort of thought...wow that would be nice to own something Ricoh again. This may all sound a bit corny to you, but I am somewhat loyal like that. This is why most of my binoculars have been Leupold b/c I stick with a brand I like...just wish they still were making the golden ring line. Just waiting to here back from the person at optics4birding and I will make my final decision either tonight or tomorrow.
what do you think of this pentax model?

Hi Beth, I own both the 8x32 Pentax DCF ED and the Nikon EDG 8x32 and did an extensive comparison to the Zeiss Conquest HD 8x42 when it first came out. Below is the link to my comparisons.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=227336

I haven't had an opportunity to check out the newer (and smaller) 8x32 Zeiss Conquest HD, but I assume that it will be optically very similar to the 8x42 version.

A brief summary of the differences between the two. The Zeiss is marginally sharper (you'll only see this after careful evaluation with both binos mounted on tripods) and slightly more neutral colors. But unfortunately has more CA than the Pentax.

The Pentax has slightly better contrast, more than likely due to its slight color bias. It has virtually zero CA in the sweet spot and only marginally more at the edges.

The Zeiss is sharp for about 90% of the FOV versus the Pentax which is sharp for about 80% of the FOV. The Pentax also has the better NO FAULT warranty, and can also be found for about $200 less than the Zeiss. See the link below.

http://www.pentaximaging.com/sport-optics/birding/binoculars

I'm sure that you'll find either one satisfying to own in the long term, but as always, it's better to try and see if you can compare them yourself before laying out your $$$$

Good luck and let us know which one you choose.
 
Hi

I endorse all of David's (Typo's) remarks especially the following:

After trying loads of stuff at the British Bird Fair, I think the Swaro CL is a tourist bin, not really up to the standard required for birding or nature observation.

The Zeiss Conquest HD is terrific value for money and in my (Zeiss-biased) view is a great choice. OK Chosun's idea of an ex-demo Zeiss FL is even better if you can find one. But although I sound a bit silly having bought a Zeiss HT recently, the Conquest HD is probably the best bang for the buck available.

Good luck.

Lee
 
Hi

I endorse all of David's (Typo's) remarks especially the following:

After trying loads of stuff at the British Bird Fair, I think the Swaro CL is a tourist bin, not really up to the standard required for birding or nature observation.

The Zeiss Conquest HD is terrific value for money and in my (Zeiss-biased) view is a great choice. OK Chosun's idea of an ex-demo Zeiss FL is even better if you can find one. But although I sound a bit silly having bought a Zeiss HT recently, the Conquest HD is probably the best bang for the buck available.

Good luck.

Lee

Lee,

That is a pretty rigorous standard you have set up for birding and nature observation, isn't it? (.....I think the Swaro CL is a tourist bin, not up to the standard required for birding or nature observation.) And you seem to have based it on your tour around the British Bird Fair.

Certainly there are many other binoculars that would qualify for these pursuits other than those that are unarguably agreed to be ones recognized as absolutely top of the line.

I'm not by any means pushing the Swarovski CL here, I've never used it, but it can't be any worse than the Nikon Monarchs which I have seen official bird counters at the Hawk Mountain Sanctuary using during fall raptor migration season.

And I seem to recall that the older Nikon 8 x 42 HG L has a FOV about the same size as the 8 x 30 CL does.

Bob
 
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Or maybe he just doesn't know what the word "required" means? I see all these people out there observing nature and birds happily with bins that are surely lesser than the Swarovski CL, myself included. I guess we all are really just tourists, blissfully unaware that we aren't meeting the required standard for our pursuit?
 
ok so I just ordered online at birdwatching.com. I spoke to Diane Porter for 10 minutes on the phone. She tested and reviewed the mid-sized binoculars in Birdwatcher's Digest. I didn't know that until she told me. I have this very copy on my desk at work and I referred to it over the past couple of days. So, based on her recommendation I ordered...
drumroll please....tatatatatatatatatatat

the Vortex Viper HD

Diane said these impressed the heck out of the testers (back in 2010). It's high on their review chart at 6 and right under the top 3 and only a quarter of the cost. The close focus is only 3 ft and has a wide FOV which are aspects I told her I need. She is familiar with the new Zeiss Conquest HD and says the Viper HD is every bit as good optically in her opinion. Only think I don't like is they are a bit ugly, but she said the green color tone is nice in person. She could have tried to sell me a more expensive binocular (they carry the top names and the new Zeiss), but she was honest and obviously knows quite a bit. She also mentioned she used the Viper extensively in the field and thinks it's not quite possible that I would not be pleased and that I can return them without issue if I am not satisfied. Also she mentioned that the Vortex warranty is top notch.
So, once I get them and try them out I'll let you all know how I like them. I was never into the idea of ordering more than one pair to compare and subsequently return one (or both)...that's just a pain in the butt to me. So, thank you all so much for your input and I hope I wasn't too high maintenance here. I really appreciate all of your impressions on the various models.

so what do you think of my choice ?
 
From what I have read, its perfectly situated in that sweet spot of a heck of a value for money. Very high on my own list, if (no, when) I will buy a roof in the 8x32 configuration.

Congratulations!
 
thanks Oetzi ! I think I made the right choice...can't wait to get them in, but it will take some time to ship since New Year's is upon us. These might not ship out until next Wed.

I went back through the thread to see if anyone had recommended this brand and it looks like eitanaltman recommended the viper's early on in the thread. I should have listened back then ;)
 
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