• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Scottish Hen Harrier found shot, two missing. (1 Viewer)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...andatory-licensing/ar-BBYaktN?ocid=spartanntp

Is this new news about Scottish grouse moors, or just a rehashed piece people were already aware of?

It also highlights that burning of heather is being outlawed in England but only due to environmental protection laws.

I think this is new news. The question must be what level of proof will be required for action, but judging from the use (in the expert report that supported the change proposal) of satellite tracking data as damning, I would expect that an estate on whose ground a tracked raptor disappeared will be likely to suffer sanction on that evidence. If so, Merry Christmas Scotland! :t:B :)

John
 
I think this is new news. The question must be what level of proof will be required for action, but judging from the use (in the expert report that supported the change proposal) of satellite tracking data as damning, I would expect that an estate on whose ground a tracked raptor disappeared will be likely to suffer sanction on that evidence. If so, Merry Christmas Scotland! :t:B :)

John

Sounds positive!
 
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...andatory-licensing/ar-BBYaktN?ocid=spartanntp

Is this new news about Scottish grouse moors, or just a rehashed piece people were already aware of?

It also highlights that burning of heather is being outlawed in England but only due to environmental protection laws.

There's also a summary on the BBC from 19 December: I enclose extracts in case the link isn't accessible to all;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50854279?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story

"Scottish estates should be given five years to demonstrate a "measurable" reduction in illegal raptor persecution or face the introduction of licensing for grouse shooting, a review has said.

Land managers oppose licensing and fear it would make businesses unprofitable.

A review said the move would be needed if there was not a "marked improvement in the ecological sustainability of grouse moor management".

The Scottish government said it would consider the recommendations carefully."

"The two-year review, led by Professor Alan Werritty, was ordered after a report by Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH) concluded that a third of satellite tagged golden eagles had disappeared suspiciously.

Its remit was to look at grouse moor management more broadly after concerns were also raised by conservationists about muirburn and the culling of mountain hares. Muirburn is the practice of setting fire to strips of land to create a patchwork of habitats in which ground-nesting grouse can live.
The report said ministers should increase regulatory control of the Muirburn Code and give SNH powers to monitor whether estates are sticking to it."

"Professor Werritty said: "Our remit invited us to make recommendations to reduce the illegal killing of raptors but, at the same time, to give due regard to the socio-economic contribution that grouse shooting makes to Scotland's rural economy. Both topics have proved complex and problematic.

In order to have a unanimous recommendation on this key issue with the authority that implies, the group proposes a five-year probationary period for specified raptors on or near grouse shooting estates to recover to a favourable conservation status.

Should this target fail to be achieved, licensing should be introduced immediately. We all agree that it is the only way forward in that situation.

Licensing would require estates to complete additional paperwork and submissions to organisations like SNH."

"A row emerged last year after the renowned ecologist Dr Adam Watson, who has since died, published a report suggesting there had been a dramatic decline in mountain hare numbers since the 1950s.

Moorland managers said his findings were at odds with their own experiences and that culling was necessary to protect the red grouse from disease.

Professor Werritty's report said land managers should be required to report annually to SNH on the number of mountain hares that they both count and kill.

The study comes amid calls from conservationist for an end to mountain hare culls."

The report is downloadable at:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/grouse-moor-management-group-report-scottish-government/

MJB
 
It seems to be a solution but it seems crazy to say if you REDUCE you’re illegal activity then will let you continue.
 
It seems to be a solution but it seems crazy to say if you REDUCE you’re illegal activity then will let you continue.

I take that to mean that, for example, poaching activities carried out by town-dwellers (a common occurrence according to Alan Stewart) on a landowner's property and which lead to poisoned raptors as 'bycatch' are not done with the complicity of a landowner's employees or the landowner's consent if he has put in place unambiguous written instructions. Landowners who are actively pro-raptor conservation have also had poisoned raptors in these circumstances.
MJB
 
I take that to mean that, for example, poaching activities carried out by town-dwellers (a common occurrence according to Alan Stewart) on a landowner's property and which lead to poisoned raptors as 'bycatch' are not done with the complicity of a landowner's employees or the landowner's consent if he has put in place unambiguous written instructions. Landowners who are actively pro-raptor conservation have also had poisoned raptors in these circumstances.
MJB

I’m sure ‘town dwellers’ do poach. I doubt that they use poison though. There might be some with a grudge against raptors (pigeon racers for one) but they would hardly be responsible for wide scale raptor deaths on grouse moors...

I was making the point on wording - if you reduce your illegal activity we won’t impose licensing which means you can continue your illegal activity just on a smaller scale - is what you’re saying to landowners.

Even if a landowner puts in writing he doesn’t want protected species killed by his gamekeeper I don’t think that protects the landowner under vicarious liability...
 
There's also a summary on the BBC from 19 December: I enclose extracts in case the link isn't accessible to all;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50854279?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story


Moorland managers said his findings were at odds with their own experiences and that culling was necessary to protect the red grouse from disease.

The report is downloadable at:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/grouse-moor-management-group-report-scottish-government/

MJB

Did the moorland managers explain the joint tenancy of moorland by Mountain Hares and Red Grouse (not to mention their continuing joint tenancy elsewhere in the two species' joint range than UK) over hundreds of thousands of years prior to the existence of moorland management for grouse shooting?

Culling is not necessary to protect Red Grouse from disease just as killing predators is not necessary to protect Red Grouse from predation. Indeed, natural predation will remove the sick of both species from the population more accurately and efficiently than moorland managers can conceive, let alone achieve.

John
 
Did the moorland managers explain the joint tenancy of moorland by Mountain Hares and Red Grouse (not to mention their continuing joint tenancy elsewhere in the two species' joint range than UK) over hundreds of thousands of years prior to the existence of moorland management for grouse shooting?

Culling is not necessary to protect Red Grouse from disease just as killing predators is not necessary to protect Red Grouse from predation. Indeed, natural predation will remove the sick of both species from the population more accurately and efficiently than moorland managers can conceive, let alone achieve.

John

I was just reporting what the BBC had been told by moorland managers, John. I made no claim that their 'experiences' were thoroughly documented or peer-reviewed...;)
MJB
 
Unless someone is actually cauight in the act, it's difficult to see how we will ever stop this mindless slaughter, perhaps it's time to establish 'vicarious liablity' and prosecute landowners for birds found shot on their land?


https://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/v2/...hilst_two_others_disappear.aspx?s_id=66586714
What, again?!
RAAARGH!!!
This is getting infuriating, embarrassing,and shows just how ineffective some aspects of the police are. I remember a situation in which my bike was stolen from almost at the entrance of a police building. This reminds me of it.
Prosecution will do nothing. A more hands-on approach is required, I think. Deprive landowners of their property.
Look at some disturbing news I found whilst researching whether Dersingham Bog was worth a visit:
https://markavery.info/2017/10/24/prince-harry-woods/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/nov/07/monarchy.wildlife
Hen harriers shot down when a stupid prince was out with a gun, and then the birds removed to prevent said prince being prosecuted.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eaths-Queen-s-Sandringham-Norfolk-resort.html
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/enviro...olk-s-rare-montagu-s-harrier-killed-1-5151544
https://www.thecanary.co/discovery/2017/08/18/rare-birds-mysteriously-dying-royal-estate-centre/
A MONTAGU'S HARRIER, Britain's rarest breeding bird of prey, killed
I think it is at least understandable to get scared for some livestock when a golden eagle appears nearby- those things can kill a deer, but when small, light, endearing little raptors like those who won't even be able to kill a chicken, I think, that is completely brainless to even get scared for them. And in none of those cases killing is acceptable. And should be punished properly- especially with hen harriers almost culled in the UK.
Nobody is afraid and goes out to shoot down a black vulture in Spain when it cruises over a farm- and those do actually look a bit unnerving. I have had magnificent observations of hen harriers, honey-buzzards in the same place in Russia, despite that being next to a village.
In Russia the black kite is feared, because when many a chicken got shreddered by a goshawk, and the owners run out to see the mess, a black kite was seen soaring nearby, whilst the real culprit was hiding in a tree.
Lammergeiers are even sometimes said to kill people. Those are vultures- they don't kill people. They very rarely kill animals.
Some raptors like vultures never kill anything living- they might stand nearby when something is dying, but never even finish it off.
It saddens me deeply to see that Montagu's harriers- which should be doing so well and nest everywhere in East Anglia, like they do even in the suburbs of Moscow, where there has recently been a population boom, are driven to the brink of extinction because of some unrepentant fools.
Hen harriers are, as far as birds go- weaklings. If something like a goshawk attacks it, it will be dead in a few seconds. They can only eat red grouse chicks, not adult birds. So why gamekeepers shoot them is stupid. All those artificial driven moors should be abolished. Walked-up moors are much better in my opinion. I can understand the threat a fox can pose to those birds, but not a hen harrier.
In Spain, we not only reintroduce birds, but provide food for them in places. I am looking forward to a trip I planned to 'Vulture Alley' right next to a city due to this.
In Russia we do hunt, that is true, but what we kill are usually black grouse, caprcaillies, willow grouse and hazel grouse. I don't think I've ever heard of a bird shot by hunters there in recent times. In the past, it was horrible. But now it is much better. Now me and my aunt can enjoy hen harriers on a close field.
So what is going on in the UK?
Is it not enough that the bus service in Cambridge is the worst I have ever seen? Is it not enough that the train service is atrocious? Some companies- like GWR, never made me angry, despite me using a London-Bristol route often. It is a million ties worse on the London- Cambridge route. In contrast, RZD and Renfe is almost perfect, to be honest. Oh, and also SNCF. That is great, too.
Do we need to have raptor persecution on the list, too?
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/enviro...o-norfolk-and-suffolk-were-scrapped-1-5007822
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10303266
I seriously don't even understand why a vote is called for this stuff. Enforce the change, deprive owners of their lands and so forth until people understand that a massive eagle is not interested in a lamb.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...oast-just-bird-brained-writes-ROBIN-PAGE.html
Take a look at this garbage, as well. Whoever wrote this must be either stupid with what I call fifth-grade control center short-circuit And I am betting anyone here my camera that if a Russian farmer sees a Goshawk destroy something, they won't run for a gun. I can even guarantee that in Spain if something of a farmer's gets ripped to shreds by an eagle, it will not cause even an outcry. When near Baikal, there were so many eagles- and there were also lots of farmers. Neither minds the other. Eagles have such large range of species they take they don't need lambs and pigs. Hen harriers too.
I enjoyed such beautiful views of one of them from quite close with my aunt and cousins as it cruised around, completely oblivious to us. Hen harriers are so beautiful and graceful... A juvenile honey-buzzard once got curious and decided to check me out, circling around me for quite some time. A goshawk once came crashing through the forest, flew over a busy path, and barrelled off through the trees into the distance. Those are the kinds of things the UK needs and the UK deserves, but is woefully lacking. In Russia you should see a Jay. Noisy, mischievous, who like to raid gardens. They never get shot for that.
Now look what happens here.
The breathtaking views of ships attended by black kites was beautiful. White-tailed eagles nesting on lands which are OPEN TO HUNTING (I saw a nest there full of three eagles, with another nearby). Why can't the UK have such birds nesting on the Avon near the sea?
In Russia we have another problem, which is at least not as idiotic: falcons caught and deported to the Arabs. It brings such a smile to my face to hear of how the Russian Special Forces prevented birds being flown out of the country.

The UK is my favourite country. Imagine how it would look to see hen harriers around in east Anglia in the summer. Montagu's harriers everywhere. Goshawks everywhere. Eagle-owls everywhere. White-tailed eagles and ospreys near water.
Golden eagles in the mountains. Falcons everywhere.
Now, look at the reality. What goes on in the UK. People have the power to stop this- and yet do nothing.
It looks like the hen harrier is heading for UK extinction, thanks to idiots with guns. Montagu's harrier as well. What's next? WTEs, GEs, Goshawks?

The same thing happened to bears in the UK. Wolves as well. In contrast, villagers in the Cordillera Cantabrica are proud of their bears. This needs to stop.
If a bird vanishes next to a grouse moor, or a racing pigeon estate, confiscated, jailed and that's it. Unless people crack down on those curs out there on the moors, hey will not stop until all raptors are extinct here, just like on Malta.
What's next after a hen harrier? Barn owl? Peregrine? Goshawk? Merlin?

Why do I have to spend tons of money to go to Spain or Russia to see hen harriers and so forth? Why can't they just be protected, fitted with satellite trackers, and that will lead to multiple arrests?

If it were only possible to start a petition to raise money to start depriving gamekeepers and so forth of their property...
I still remember and remind you of that lonely beautiful hen harrier as I watched it with my family. Just cruising around, slowly and gracefully. I want that here. But no, it couldn't be possible, could it? For me, my mum, my aunt,my granny, my girlfriend, my cousins to enjoy this beautiful spectacle here?
It would be so nice if reintroduction project to reintroduce something big and powerful like an imperial eagle, eagle owl, golden eagle was undertaken in suitable places for them. Personally, I think an imperial eagle would love East Anglia and Salisbury Plain in the summer. Imagine the furor that would generate. Then just tear down and signs which attempt to intervene and show people-the hard way- that those birds are not dangerous. Reintroduce hen harriers in East Anglia.
If only golden eagles and others were so protective of their nests like Ural Owls...
Something needs to be done about this. Bankrupt grouse moors. I am against shooting, but at least, if you really want that, leave the good, well-managed, walked-up moors where nothing gets persecuted. Protect hen harrier nests. Imprison without question and parole those proven to disturb those birds and other wildlife. That is the only thing that can be done. And when the faces of those gamekeepers are smeared in the dirt, perhaps then the hen harrier will survive.
Maybe only then will people like me and my aunt be able to enjoy those beautiful birds again. And I sincerely hope someone's going to jail due to that incident.
 
Hen harriers shot down when a stupid prince was out with a gun, and then the birds removed to prevent said prince being prosecuted.

Careful Gleb, some years ago I managed to get a permanent ban from The Times letter pages for putting a certain Mr. H. Hewitt and hen harriers in the same sentence! You'll be getting Special Branch following you next...
 
Careful Gleb, some years ago I managed to get a permanent ban from The Times letter pages for putting a certain Mr. H. Hewitt and hen harriers in the same sentence! You'll be getting Special Branch following you next...
Interesting. Without removing this aspect, no progress will be done. Persecution...
Now Norfolk does not have breeding Montagu's harriers as well...
 
Careful Gleb, some years ago I managed to get a permanent ban from The Times letter pages for putting a certain Mr. H. Hewitt and hen harriers in the same sentence! You'll be getting Special Branch following you next...

Oh, I'm not so sure... I think Mr Hewitt has recently somewhat urinated in his French fries.
 
Oh, I'm not so sure... I think Mr Hewitt has recently somewhat urinated in his French fries.
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...assive-penalty-for-raptor-poisoning-in-spain/
This is what people including 'Mr Hewitt' should get for raptor persecution. I mean, gunshots rang out, people testify it is true, only person hunting is the prince and his friend, bodies removed, WHAT?
Unless ALL people who persecute raptors are cracked on, this will never halt in our country. Everyone should learn from Spain's example. So yes, 'urinated.
 
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...assive-penalty-for-raptor-poisoning-in-spain/
This is what people including 'Mr Hewitt' should get for raptor persecution. I mean, gunshots rang out, people testify it is true, only person hunting is the prince and his friend, bodies removed, WHAT?
Unless ALL people who persecute raptors are cracked on, this will never halt in our country. Everyone should learn from Spain's example. So yes, 'urinated.

Fully agree. It seems the burden of proof required to secure convictions for raptor persecution in the UK is set at an almost impossibly high level. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the perpetrators typically act under the direction of the sort of people who socialise with the judiciary.
 
Fully agree. It seems the burden of proof required to secure convictions for raptor persecution in the UK is set at an almost impossibly high level. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the perpetrators typically act under the direction of the sort of people who socialise with the judiciary.

What's even more awful is that enforcement laws commit perjury themselves to protect someone who deserves a good fine...
 
Warning! This thread is more than 4 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top