• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

more bad news from Bowland (1 Viewer)

June Atkinson said:
We have lost some of our red kites since the reintroduction began in 2004.
We have excellent relations with the farmers in the core area; it's when the kites try to disperse westwards into Tynedale and northwards into Northumberland that they are at risk.
Two of our 2004 kites defected to Yorkshire and are breeding very successfully with partners. One pair is on an Estate where they have game and a Gamekeeper. They prove that the two- kites and game- are compatible.
Only recently another kite has been found dead, but we are waiting for the autopsy results. They have all either been shot or poisoned.
Our website:
Click to expand...


and kites don't even kill gamebirds
 
Amarillo said:
and kites don't even kill gamebirds
Click to expand...

Only the chicks from the wild breeding birds.. The reality is there wouldn't be any pheasants and partridge left is they didn't breed them for release and shooting.. It's not the fault of predatory species (which include foxes) that the agricultural industry has sanitised and stripped bare the countryside leaving little habitat for quarry species to hide from predators, breed or seek cover from the cold in harsh winters.. These sportsman, these guardians of the countryside (guardians of "their" countryside more like) only care for the animals they enjoy shooting.. Our countryside has been sanatised so much with fertilisers, insecticides, herbicides, destroying much of the food supply our wildlife was feeding upon.. and habitat destruction by these selfish greedy individuals.. even the essential bee population is on the verge of collapse and much of our bird population has disappeared..... They'd only look after wildlife if there was profit in it for them..
 
Last edited:
lewis20126 said:
I will do a FOIR for the data from NE. I will ask for an annual breakdown of licenses issued for the control of otherwise protected species, to include buzzard and peregrine, for the last 20 years.

Can anyone suggest other species which it would be worth adding to the FOIR?

I would like to get the most robust data set possible with a view to doing some very simple statistical analysis. I suspect that might require pooling all species data to get any worthwhile result.

cheers, alan
Click to expand...

This might help.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w6tmmwhnak1xfar/birds-of-prey-stats_tcm6-35996.pdf

Cheers
Jonathan
 
lewis20126 said:
I will do a FOIR for the data from NE. I will ask for an annual breakdown of licenses issued for the control of otherwise protected species, to include buzzard and peregrine, for the last 20 years.
Click to expand...

No licences should be allowed at all.. The hunting fraternity should breed and release more birds to allow for predation from predators.. It’s an exchange, a legitimate cost the hunting establishment should pay to pursue what is a leisurely non-essential pursuit.. Wiping out the local wildlife to simply kill animals for pleasure is abhorrent.
 
There is no proof for this statement. Red Kites are carrion eaters, and also feed on earthworms and beetles.
Yes, they are opportunistic - if for example, their nest was near that of a magpie or other bird and there were nestlings, the kite might take them.

Read again my earlier statement:
Two of our 2004 kites defected to Yorkshire and are breeding very successfully with partners. One pair is on an Estate where they have game and a Gamekeeper. They prove that the two- kites and game- are compatible.


Cinereous said:
Only the chicks from the wild breeding birds.. The reality is there wouldn't be any pheasants and partridge left is they didn't breed them for release and shooting.. It's not the fault of predatory species (which include foxes) that the agricultural industry has sanitised and stripped bare the countryside leaving little habitat for quarry species to hide from predators, breed or seek cover from the cold in harsh winters.. These sportsman, these guardians of the countryside (guardians of "their" countryside more like) only care for the animals they enjoy shooting.. Our countryside has been sanatised so much with fertilisers, insecticides, herbicides, destroying much of the food supply our wildlife was feeding upon.. and habitat destruction by these selfish greedy individuals.. even the essential bee population is on the verge of collapse and much of our bird population has disappeared..... They'd only look after wildlife if there was profit in it for them..
Click to expand...
 
June Atkinson said:
There is no proof for this statement. Red Kites are carrion eaters, and also feed on earthworms and beetles.
Yes, they are opportunistic - if for example, their nest was near that of a magpie or other bird and there were nestlings, the kite might take them..[/B]
Click to expand...

June??? Where on earth did you get they only fed on carrion, earthworms and beetles???? It is well documented... scientifically documented they also feed on small mammals such as mice, voles, shrews, young hares and rabbits and a wide variety of carrion including sheep carcasses and dead game birds too...

You can never say they will never take a game bird.. but it's likely to be very rare and not the norm.. They certainly don't deserve the persecution they're receiving from the paranoid hunting fraternity......
 
lewis20126 said:
Jonathan

Thanks - seems like no need for a FOIR! Do you know why NE produced this data summary? perhaps in response to an earlier FOIR?

thanks again, alan
Click to expand...

The first thing that is obvious is that NE received 14 applications for control of buzzards in respect of damage to livestock / wild birds (and other than for bird strike) during 2003-2012. No licenses were granted during that ten year period.

During 2013 to date, 5 license applications have been received in respect of the same and 3 have been granted. So the approval rate has gone from 0% to 60% overnight!

So, what has changed between 2003-2012 and 2013?

  • Have buzzards become much more efficient at killing pheasants and their chicks with the turn of the year?
  • Has any new substantive science been done which supports licence approval?
  • Have junior staff & middle managers responsible for processing the applications all been replaced with other less conservation-minded colleagues?

I wonder what has happened...

cheers, alan
 
lewis20126 said:
The first thing that is obvious is that NE received 14 applications for control of buzzards in respect of damage to livestock / wild birds (and other than for bird strike) during 2003-2012. No licenses were granted during that ten year period.

During 2013 to date, 5 license applications have been received in respect of the same and 3 have been granted. So the approval rate has gone from 0% to 60% overnight!

So, what has changed between 2003-2012 and 2013?

  • Have buzzards become much more efficient at killing pheasants and their chicks with the turn of the year?
  • Has any new substantive science been done which supports licence approval?
  • Have junior staff & middle managers responsible for processing the applications all been replaced with other less conservation-minded colleagues?

I wonder what has happened...

cheers, alan
Click to expand...

Judging by many of the replies the finger points very firmly towards one particular pro-hunting Conservative minister... Perhaps it is "HE" who should be asked why licences have increased 60% "ONLY" on his watch???
 
The data differentiates between "Predation of livestock / poultry", "Predation of wild bird", and "Predation of game birds". It is disingenuous to suggest they all refer to pheasants, especially when buzzards take free range hens. Also in their response to the recent buzzard nest destruction licences Natural England stated that the same pheasant shoot had applied in previous years but had the licences refused and been advised on mitigation measures. So some, or all, of the previous rejections under "Predation of game birds", would be at the same shoot as the granted nest destruction licences.

Give that the clamour for buzzard control has come mainly from Scotland it would be illuminating to see such data from Scotland, (and Wales and NI come to that).
 
Mono said:
The data differentiates between "Predation of livestock / poultry", "Predation of wild bird", and "Predation of game birds". It is disingenuous to suggest they all refer to pheasants, especially when buzzards take free range hens. Also in their response to the recent buzzard nest destruction licences Natural England stated that the same pheasant shoot had applied in previous years but had the licences refused and been advised on mitigation measures. So some, or all, of the previous rejections under "Predation of game birds", would be at the same shoot as the granted nest destruction licences.

Give that the clamour for buzzard control has come mainly from Scotland it would be illuminating to see such data from Scotland, (and Wales and NI come to that).
Click to expand...

OK, I oversimplified in summary although this was clear earlier in the post and is obvious on the data sheet. They don't all relate to pheasants as you correctly point out but all relate to buzzard nest destruction.

The data are still:
2003-2012: 14 applications, no approvals
2013: 5 applications, 3 approvals.

What do you think has changed?

cheers, alan
 
lewis20126 said:
OK, I oversimplified in summary although this was clear earlier in the post and is obvious on the data sheet. They don't all relate to pheasants as you correctly point out but all relate to buzzard nest destruction.

The data are still:
2003-2012: 14 applications, no approvals
2013: 5 applications, 3 approvals.

What do you think has changed?

cheers, alan
Click to expand...

DEFRA described pheasants as livestock in their e-mail to me. Be very careful (pedantic) handling their data.

John
 
Pheasants are only classed as livestock when still in the release pens, once out they are considered wild birds. This is a clear double standard and why is it that when conservationists wish to to reintroduce a previous natural resident a whole host of rules and regulations must rightly be jumped through yet the release into our countryside of some 40 million non native game birds is blithely allowed without a clear picture of how or what this does to the ecology of that wider countryside positive or negative. Until clear research elucidates this there should be no control of a protected native predator to protect non native game birds introduced for the pleasure of killing them.
 
TeePee Knot said:
Pheasants are only classed as livestock when still in the release pens, once out they are considered wild birds. This is a clear double standard and why is it that when conservationists wish to to reintroduce a previous natural resident a whole host of rules and regulations must rightly be jumped through yet the release into our countryside of some 40 million non native game birds is blithely allowed without a clear picture of how or what this does to the ecology of that wider countryside positive or negative. Until clear research elucidates this there should be no control of a protected native predator to protect non native game birds introduced for the pleasure of killing them.
Click to expand...

The reason why is simple, "Money".... It would be interesting to find out just how much money winds up with the exchequer.. None would be my guess.. It would probably not be economically viable if they had to pay tax... Also it's an activity of the privileged.. It took a lot of public outcry and violent demonstration to stop the last privileged hunting activity.. These people care nothing for wildlife... The countryside is nothing but a playground to them, and they'll destroy anything which inhibits their fun... Your right in pointing out it is illegal to release non-indigenous/endemic species into the wild unless you happen to be one of the privileged..(the rest of us would be prosecuted)..
Also landowners don't want protected wildlife on their land.. It makes it difficult for them to profit from it.. It makes it difficult for their land to be sold to property developers.. We're back to good old GREED all over again.. Harsh and enforced punishments is what we need.. Game keepers who kill BOP should lose their jobs and their employers lose their licence to own shoots and raise game...
Allowing them to continue would be the equivalent of allowing a drug dealing policeman to continue as a policeman despite being caught and prosecuted... or allowing a convicted peado to continue looking after children.. A slap on the wrist does not stop them... It doesn't help when the judge is privileged himself and has participated in this activity or has close family and friends which do....
 
Last edited:
I largely agree with what you say, but the real problem is that raptor persecution is endemic in the shooting industry and yet is a very difficult crime to prove who did what when and as you say the penalties are often derisory compared to the crime. We need licencing of all shoots and keepers but any closer control of the industry is not going to happen under this government.
Going back to the bad news from Bowland I note that the numbwits who write that blog which contains a great deal of scurrilous nonsense think the problem is RSPB or NE's fault when it is clearly persecution by those interested in game. It is virtually impossible without prohibitively expensive 24 hr guarding to stop the determined persecutor, coupled with most harriers are killed in winter. Interestingly the real down turn in the fortunes of Bowland peregrines and harriers started the year there was a keepering regime change on one of the largest private estates, lets at least point the finger at the right targets instead of pointless wittering about people trying to do their best, even though it sometimes falls short through no fault of their own.
 
I completely agree TeePee, it is almost impossible to prove... This is why when they are caught they should be hammered very severely... The current slap on the wrist discourages nobody... It's laughable.. Current punishments can be covered by their petty cash allowance usually allocated luncheon meeting.. As I said current law enforcement amounts to nothing and no deterrent whatsoever....
 
Yes most of the fines are paltry compared to the revenue generated by the shoot or the real wealth of the owner ( who usually pays the keepers fine) At least in Scotland we have vicarious liability, it will be intersting to see if this weeks convicted keeper will result in a VL prosecution of the owner.
Most people even most birder's remain blissfully ignorant of the true extent of raptor persecution , especially in the uplands. There is enough harrier habitat to support some 330 ish pairs without damage to grouse shooting yet we have yet again just one nest in England. This is indicative of a widespread and probably organised persecution not the few bad apples the shooting lobby claim. Peregrines fair little better, the only saving grace being unlike the harrier they also nest elsewhere otherwise their population would be in a similar state, buzzards, kites and goshawk suffer similarly, it is a national scandal. Much of the uplands are designated SPAs for harriers and peregrines it would be interesting to know what Natural England are doing to secure the future for these areas which do not hold these designation species in the required numbers (or harriers at all), but of course this government have changed the rules so NE cannot speak without DEFRA permission.
Solving the problems is long term we must not give in to the disheartening facts but use them to drive us on. I trust that all reading this have signed the petition being promoted by John Armitage, you really should if you have not already done so, may be write to your MP and couch your dismay is such a way that it asks questions to which they must respond, such pressure is a key element in bringing this sorry state of natural heritage to an end.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 11 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

G
United Utilities announce they will stop grouse shooting on their land
Replies
4
Views
565
wolfbirder
wolfbirder
D
The Pharoah Eagle Owl Summary
Replies
0
Views
283
Desertwildlifeme
D
Birding Havana
ISSUE No.11 OF THE CUBAN BIRDER MAGAZINE IS OUT!!
Replies
0
Views
516
Birding Havana
Birding Havana
Gert Corfield
Chaddesley Woods & Surrounds
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
Ian Byrnes
Ian Byrnes
L
Unknown birds from Gambia 2
Replies
8
Views
772
THE_FERN
T

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top