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All things White-tailed Eagle (1 Viewer)

Anyone see the report on BBC lunchtime news on the cancellation of the WTSE project in Suffolk?? - The most depressing things was the attitude of that Pig farmer they interviewed, pig ignorance just about sums up his stupid ill-informed rant:C
 
I guess this news will be met with a contrasting mix of relief and disappointment............
http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...folk-falls-victim-to-budget-cuts-1999712.html
Well no mixed emotions for many of us! Hopefully the conservation bodies will now refocus on supporting genuinely locally-threatened species rather than devoting funds to the development of an East Anglian zoo populated with entertaining but non-globally-threatened introduced attractions...

Richard
 
Well no mixed emotions for many of us! Hopefully the conservation bodies will now refocus on supporting genuinely locally-threatened species rather than devoting funds to the development of an East Anglian zoo populated with entertaining but non-globally-threatened introduced attractions...

Richard

Absolutely; couldn't agree more!

DiP
 
Well no mixed emotions for many of us! Hopefully the conservation bodies will now refocus on supporting genuinely locally-threatened species rather than devoting funds to the development of an East Anglian zoo populated with entertaining but non-globally-threatened introduced attractions...

Richard

But most locally-threatened species in England are globally non-threatened too....
 
But most locally-threatened species in England are globally non-threatened too....
True indeed, but I'd still prefer that resources were concentrated on securing what we've already got rather than trying to introduce things that some think it'd be fun to have around.

Richard
 
True indeed, but I'd still prefer that resources were concentrated on securing what we've already got rather than trying to introduce things that some think it'd be fun to have around.

Richard

£100m is spent on Environmental Stewardship annually in this country and still the farmland bird index is flat-lining. £600k over 10 years to re-introduce a species to England still sounds like quite good value in comparison...
 
One of the few govenment cuts I agree with is the dumping of the introduction sea eagle project. Its bad science to introduce a non native breeding species to an area sensitive for conservation with a number of rare breeding bird populations that the sea eagle may impact upon.

There are a lot more pressing conservation projects in the area to spend the money on.
 
£100m is spent on Environmental Stewardship annually in this country and still the farmland bird index is flat-lining. £600k over 10 years to re-introduce a species to England still sounds like quite good value in comparison...

Fully agree. You can spend any amount of money on farmland birds forever.
 
One of the few govenment cuts I agree with is the dumping of the introduction sea eagle project. Its bad science to introduce a non native breeding species to an area sensitive for conservation with a number of rare breeding bird populations that the sea eagle may impact upon.

There are a lot more pressing conservation projects in the area to spend the money on.

While I agree the dumping of the Sea Eagle project in East Anglia is a good thing, (it should never have started in the first place), I'm afraid you have got your history regarding this species completely wrong. The Sea Eagle was once widespread in the fenland areas of the UK, as it was in many other areas. It was constant persecution that put the final nail in it's UK coffin in the early 1900's, had the project got underway in East Anglia the poor birds would have met with a similar fate just as they are now doing in Ireland and parts of Scotland. The money saved from this not very well thought out scheme should now be put to better use protecting our severely persecuted existing Raptors, although I suppose the money will now disappear into some other wastefull project. One thing the money could be used for is prosecuting the gamekeepers and landowners who are murdering our wildlife heritage, but then it wouldn't be the done thing to prosecute the landowners would it ?

nirofo.
 
I'm afraid you have got your history regarding this species completely wrong. The Sea Eagle was once widespread in the fenland areas of the UK, as it was in many other areas. It was constant persecution that put the final nail in it's UK coffin in the early 1900's ...
nirofo.

Clearly 'Tideliner' is incorrect to say Sea Eagle is "non-native" in the broader sense although I think he means to refer only to East Anglia. However, to say that 'Tideliner' has got his history wrong and that the species "was once widespread in the fenland areas of the UK" (implying thereby that it was a widespread breeding bird) seems to me to be putting the case too strongly.

Yes, there is very strong presumption on ecological grounds that the species bred in our fenland areas, but historical evidence for this is thinner on the ground than this comment suggests. In these matters I think you need to make a clear distinction between historical records (sensu stricto) and pre-historic records (otherwise 'native' becomes a meaningless term with rhinos, hippos & the like being 'native'). There is no entirely convincing historical evidence that I'm aware of the the species was a widespread breeder in lowland (= fenland) Britain in historical times (i.e. Roman & post-Roman). There are twenty odd records of archaeological remains of Sea Eagle during the Roman period and a further six during early medieaval times, but only four from late Medieaval period (and about a quarter of all reports refer to birds from upland areas) Despite the widespread records from the Roman period, bones only prove presence, not breeding. (Claims of breeding in the west country and IOW at a much later date are, in my view, entirely spurious and refer to cliff nesting birds noit fenland).

I think, therefore, that the furthest you could go based on the historical/archeaological record is that Sea Eagle was a regular visitor to lowland Britain in Roman times when it probably bred. If so it may well have persisted in these areas as a breeding species into the early Medieaval period, but seems to have been effectively exterminated in lowland Britain by the later Middle Ages. Victorian records suggest that it continued to be a regular winter vistor well into historical times and occasional attempts to breed cannot be discounted.

Incidentally, a significant number of Medieaval reports appear to come from areas where sheep farming was a significant economic activity (Yorkshire, the Fens, etc) so, given the species reputation, it's hardly surprising that it should have been killed off so early in our history.
 
Nifro , I have been looking hard for any evidence that sea eagles have ever bred in the proposed introduction areas and have found none. There is a claim by Sir Tomas Browne that the species bred in Norfolk 300 years ago , but in closer study of his writings he also claims three other species of eagles breeding in his marshes and a forth being a winter visitor. It would appear also he was unable to tell the difference between between adult and juvenile sea eagles claiming one species aquilla argentus ?? is only a winter visitor and only breeds in the mountains . I suspect A argentus is in fact an adult sea eagle and the sea eagles he refers to are juveniles. Sub adults might be expected summering in his day.

Norfolk was a major sheep area in England in the 14-1500s and you would expect a number of references in the writings of the time complaining of predation of the sheep by eagles. I have found none in the proposed introduction \ release areas. Falconry was also very popular at this time with the nobility , but again I have not found any mention of it in east Anglia.

There is mention of eagles at the battle of Maldon in Essex during a Viking battle with the Saxons in early autumn , but these could be summering sub-adults indeed given the lack of description it is questionable if the identification was correct. I have posted elsewhere on the forum over this matter and in over a year nobody so far has come up with and evidence that sea eagles have ever bred in Norfolk\ Suffolk so I still had the project gone ahead the release would have been an introduction , not a reintroduction.

If anyone has any proof that these birds bred in Norfolk\ Suffolk ( with references to check on ) I would love to see it. There are plenty of evidence in writings of herons \ cranes \ bitterns \ harriers \ wild geese and so on during the middle ages , so why would nobody trouble to mention such an iconic bird as the sea eagle.

There is a major difference between the attitudes of gamekeepers in Eastern England and some of their Scottish brothers. Here in Norfolk\ Suffolk we have seen marsh harriers increase from one pair 50 years ago to several hundred pairs and common buzzards increase from nothing 25 years ago to over 200 pairs in Norfolk alone. That’s not to say there is no persecution because there has , but it is at a low enough level not to impact on the raptor populations. However the sea eagle might have been a step too far.
 
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Yes, there is very strong presumption on ecological grounds that the species bred in our fenland areas, but historical evidence for this is thinner on the ground than this comment suggests.

It may be interesting for a historian, but for a widespread and ecologicaly flexible species, demanding a proof for one small locality is unjustified.

White-tailed eagles roam for several hundred kilometers at least before breeding. So in hypothetical case (very doubtful) if Norfolk will be wrong for them, they will have no trouble finding breeding area elsewhere in England.

For wildlife historian, historical data on animals older than say 200 years are scarce. So many species which we know must be common several hundred years ago left no trace. There is apparently no ancient bone or no historical account of Meadow Pipit from Britain. Was it also introduced?
 
There is mention of eagles at the battle of Maldon in Essex during a Viking battle with the Saxons in early autumn , but these could be summering sub-adults indeed given the lack of description it is questionable if the identification was correct.

I think that there is reason to suppose that the reference to eagles at the Battle of Maldon is quite likely to be of a poetic or symbolic nature rather than an actual observation.

As for Jurek's point I had imagined that I had made it clear that my comments were specifically about the historical record. His point about Meadow Pipit is both irrelevant and nonsensical since there an enormous difference between an easily overlooked 'LBJ' of no economic or folkloric significance and a large, obvious bird with a huge mythological 'footprint' and one that was surely seen as a threat to livestock,
 
Jurek to qoute you "It may be interesting for a historian, but for a widespread and ecologicaly flexible species, demanding a proof for one small locality is unjustified."

First I would not regard East Anglia as " one small locality " and if you are going to reintroduce a species proof of its presence is very important other wise where do you draw the line of introducing \ reintroducing species into an area.

I would not have been surprised if a few juv\sub adult sea eagles did summer in East Anglia in the past , across Europe they were probably far more common a thousand years ago , but the vital question is did it breed there ?
 
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