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Lancs Eagle Owls (1 Viewer)

Biritish Birds (Sept 2008) has an eight page article on Eagle Owl in Britain which should help to inform this debate. I'm sure if you're quick with your subscriptions you can get a copy!

John
 
Gary Jenkins said:
David,Boom and Himalaya.
The 2 youngsters were rung by 2 locals.Yes, the adult owls are back in the place they were seen by the masses last year.The young have moved on apparently.
Hope that helps.
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i was up there about a month or so ago, whilst walking up the valley saw buzzard, goshawk (sure it was gos, my first encounter and was informed they are in the area, light colouration from underside, medium sized raptor) kestrel and peregrine but just before where the valley end saw what i thought was one of the owls ie at the point where the 3 valleys meet, then proceeded to were the viewpoint (im sure im not giving anything away here as i got location from this site), but nothing showed - i left it to see if anything popped up on here it seems my first thoughts of e. owl poss correct.
anyway, just to dble check as i will be down there soon poss this week, is location where you are looking down onto blocks of stone encased in mesh, like some sort of dam reinforcement, also there is a public walk just behind
as i saw 2 walkers there.
thanx in advance
pete
 
Sounds like the spot. Good stuff on the Goshawk-especially given the time of year-we had a couple of memorable encounters in the area in Feb and March. Ive seen the EO`s a few times but never away from the "usual place".
Sounds like you got lucky.

cheers.
 
cheers boom

might have been lucky, but what ive found over the years is to go with your instinct, we all know kestrel, sphawk and buzzard probs the most common bop's but when you see something outside of these then what you see is prob by method of elimination
btw did i meet you up at haweswater about 8weeks ago
pete
 
KnockerNorton said:
Nightranger - you need to qualify the 'female was shot' bit. It had been shot at sometime in its life, but this was not considered to be the cause of death. It was over a decade old, after all, so may have been shot at miles away and years before. It's misleading to infer that it was shot and killed at catterick.
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Point taken but I am not sure my post was a reflection of specific details anyway. I merely pointed out that the female had been shot whether it was the cause of death was not central to my post but the fact that (unless the situation has changed) there is no breeding pair on site at the present time. Clearly this is a sensitive area so I am not looking for confirmation that a new pair is now present (I would rather we had none) but according to information in the public domain, there are no breeding EOs at present.

Incidentally, if we are being pedantic here I should point out that your (inside?) information is far less known than the other public domain statements that appeared at the time. Can you confirm that what you say is now in the public domain?
 
Nightranger said:
Incidentally, if we are being pedantic here I should point out that your (inside?) information is far less known than the other public domain statements that appeared at the time. Can you confirm that what you say is now in the public domain?
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this is relating to the catterick female, so I'm not sure if it's the one you're referring to. Anyway, what happened was, the police Wildlife Officer sent the body (pretty well decomposed) to a highly-respected Govt lab for a PM. I'm not going to specify it here as there are security issues. I have been involved with the lab previously, so know the people who did the PM, saw the PM report etc. That same report was sent back to the police, who then released a statement to the media that did not accord with the findings. Two embedded shot mentioned in the report, not considered to be cause of death (which was not determined), all of a sudden became "bird was shot and killed" in the police statement. I asked the guy who did the PM what he thought of the police statement, and he laughed at it: "that's not what I told them".

So in terms of public domain, it all boils down to the police statement, but the police statement was factually (and knowingly) wrong. The cynical may suggest that it's in a Police Wildlife Liaison Officer's interests to suggest that a bird in the media has been shot and killed. Kind of reinforces his role, one may think. Even if they know that it is being deliberately misleading. Go back to the piece of paper that was sent to the police with the facts written on it (which is not in the public domain, but which i have read), and it says nothing of the sort.
 
KnockerNorton said:
this is relating to the catterick female, so I'm not sure if it's the one you're referring to. Anyway, what happened was, the police Wildlife Officer sent the body (pretty well decomposed) to a highly-respected Govt lab for a PM. I'm not going to specify it here as there are security issues. I have been involved with the lab previously, so know the people who did the PM, saw the PM report etc. That same report was sent back to the police, who then released a statement to the media that did not accord with the findings. Two embedded shot mentioned in the report, not considered to be cause of death (which was not determined), all of a sudden became "bird was shot and killed" in the police statement. I asked the guy who did the PM what he thought of the police statement, and he laughed at it: "that's not what I told them".

So in terms of public domain, it all boils down to the police statement, but the police statement was factually (and knowingly) wrong. The cynical may suggest that it's in a Police Wildlife Liaison Officer's interests to suggest that a bird in the media has been shot and killed. Kind of reinforces his role, one may think. Even if they know that it is being deliberately misleading. Go back to the piece of paper that was sent to the police with the facts written on it (which is not in the public domain, but which i have read), and it says nothing of the sort.
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Wow, you must be some really special kind of guy to have access to such privileged information, Pat
 
Ta Knocker!

The only thing that bothers me is how it was possible to ascertain that the shot WAS NOT the cause of death. Certainly I know of similar cases with common buzzards and red kites where decomposed carcases were found with shot in them and it was not possible to prove the case even though there were suspects. In other words, the death could have been chronic rather than acute but could still have been a result of the birds being shot, irrespective of when the actual incident took place. I am not sure of the maximum time span this process could take but there are cases of humans dying as a result of complications from and old injury after several decades. Therefore, unless you are certain the shooting did not cause the death even as a result of chronic effects but the results could not otherwise confirm the cause of death, I am not sure the WLO was so far out. Not forgetting that a potential crime had been committed anyway given the female's origin was not conclusively known.
 
Nightranger said:
Ta Knocker!

The only thing that bothers me is how it was possible to ascertain that the shot WAS NOT the cause of death.
Click to expand...

Because they were buried deep in the pectoral muscle and had not gone through the sternum into any organs or vital bits. A bit like having a bit of tiny shrapnel in your thigh muscle or something - doesn't cause any problems. They were also encapsulated in scleric tissue, meaning that the body had 'wrapped them up' and 'neutralised' them to some extent. It's possible that there was chronic lead poisoning, but probably not enough to kill from just 2 shot. The bird had clearly been coping for a long while for them to be encapsulated. In other words, the shot were not recent wounds and had healed.

Birds having encapsulated shot in their muscle is not unusual, sadly, although the circumstances are totally unknown so it'd be wrong to second guess. Someone's clearly had a pot shot at it, but where that occurred is anyone's guess - could have been 100km away and 5 years previously. The problem with the copper saying what he did is that it immediately puts locals (esp keepers) in the frame, as it invents evidence of a known time and place for the crime (the bird being shot at catterick very recently). But that evidence isn't there, so it could be totally unfair to the keepers/locals and virtually pointing the finger at them in the press isn't on. Not on the evidence found.

That particular bird was also in very poor condition. You can interpret that in several ways - maybe there was lead poisoning and it was going downhill over time (although it had just managed to breed ok). Or maybe it was just an old bird and the rigours of breeding had taken its toll - for many birds the effort of breeding is too much for them and they are in a total state afterwards, often not pulling through. We could speculate all day, so I prefer to stick what we DO know - the shot was old, the bird had been coping for a long time, cause of death was unknown but not attributed to being shot, it was in poor condition, it wasn't 'shot and killed' there and then as portrayed by the Plod.
 
"well shucks I suppose I must be.......although it being my profession kind of helps too."

A name changing clairvoyant. WoW!!

Just curious, why did you not pick the Euro-lottery numbers last Friday??

Another question, do you keep changing you name in an attempt to elude the "plods" who you seem to take pleasure in slagging?
They will get you in the end. Mark my type!!

Regards

Malky
 
alcedo.atthis said:
"well shucks I suppose I must be.......although it being my profession kind of helps too."

A name changing clairvoyant. WoW!!

Just curious, why did you not pick the Euro-lottery numbers last Friday??

Another question, do you keep changing you name in an attempt to elude the "plods" who you seem to take pleasure in slagging?
They will get you in the end. Mark my type!!

Regards

Malky
Click to expand...

are you on pills, flower?

Where's the clairvoyancy? Name changes are allowed. I'm not slagging all Plod, just the fibbing one who handled the owl thing.
 
Now I'm sure Knocker doesn't need anyone spring to his defence, but I was a bit baffled by Alcedo's comments too. No clairvoyancy needed when you know the facts (as I do too in this case via my work). And I didn't see him slagging anyone off either. And as for changing names - hey, we're changing birds names all the time ;-) whats the big deal?
 
KnockerNorton said:
Birds having encapsulated shot in their muscle is not unusual,
Click to expand...

Staggeringly the data from the swan catches of Bewick's Swans at WWT Slimbridge and other centres show from x-ray studies that approximately one third of the birds caught have shot lodged in their bodies. This is NOT shot ingested as a result of feeding but from having been shot and hit although obviously not fatal. Some of these swans live on for many years. It is also a fact that on a few occasions (when more than one catch is done in a winter) that a swan has been seen to have more shot in it on the second catch compared to the first which proves that not only are the swans being shot at somewhere on their migratory route but also in the local area during their winter stay. Thus as Knocker says, shot lodged in muscle is not unusual.
 
Colin said:
Staggeringly the data from the swan catches of Bewick's Swans at WWT Slimbridge and other centres show from x-ray studies that approximately one third of the birds caught have shot lodged in their bodies. This is NOT shot ingested as a result of feeding but from having been shot and hit although obviously not fatal. Some of these swans live on for many years. It is also a fact that on a few occasions (when more than one catch is done in a winter) that a swan has been seen to have more shot in it on the second catch compared to the first which proves that not only are the swans being shot at somewhere on their migratory route but also in the local area during their winter stay. Thus as Knocker says, shot lodged in muscle is not unusual.
Click to expand...

Yup, it's waterfowl that i had in mind (but also many raptors when x-rayed at vets have shot in them from other occasions). It's also common to find it in game when carving - you regularly find shot in game that were not killed with shotguns!
 
KnockerNorton said:
We could speculate all day, so I prefer to stick what we DO know - the shot was old, the bird had been coping for a long time, cause of death was unknown but not attributed to being shot, it was in poor condition, it wasn't 'shot and killed' there and then as portrayed by the Plod.
Click to expand...


Accepted! However, I am not sure the police report ever pointed the finger at anyone locally. I am afraid that was our assumption as readers even if we can say that he should have been clearer in the statement. As I said in my last post, weare getting away from the root issue by discussing specifics because the police officer was right to illustrate what could have been an illegal act no matter how we look at it.

Scenario 1: The bird was an ex-captive and may not have moved far from where it was released/escaped. This means the shooting was a local issue irrespective of how long the shot had been present. Although the bird had no protection in wildlife law there is the difficult issue of someone basically shooting at someone else's property and animal cruelty.

Scenario 2: The bird was a genuine wild individual (I doubt this), which had full protection under UK wildlife law. I am not sure if EOs are a legal target anywhere in their European range but I doubt this would the case for any of the likely country sources.

I commend your caution in not jumping to conclusions particularly towards local landowners but a crime had been committed even if there was a question over which one. On the other hand, North Yokshire (nor has North Lancashire for that matter) is not an area that has clean hands over raptor persecution as I am sure you are aware. With that in mind, the police officer showed that nothing was sacred so it is a small point whether the bird actually died from being shot. In fact, the animal cruelty issue is probably more distinct as a result of this outcome even if the bird coped for some time.

Thanks for the clarification on the PM results.
 
Nightranger said:
Accepted! However, I am not sure the police report ever pointed the finger at anyone locally. I am afraid that was our assumption as readers even if we can say that he should have been clearer in the statement. As I said in my last post, weare getting away from the root issue by discussing specifics because the police officer was right to illustrate what could have been an illegal act no matter how we look at it.
Click to expand...

if you see how it was reported (e.g. http://www.daelnet.co.uk/countrynews/country_news_30012006_4.cfm ) then the police briefing left little to the imagination and was deliberately misleading re the facts. It leads everyone to believe that it was shot recently and died soon after as a direct result.

I can think of examples of how it could have been shot without a crime being committed. The shot found was allegedly of the kind used to shoot foxes. Suppose a shooter somewhere is out lamping and picks up a pair of massive eyes that he thinks is a fox, then shoots at it. He maybe had no idea it was an eagle owl. That isn't a crime. So, again, my beef is that the copper took it upon himself to invent a scenario which pointed the finger at locals, and present that as fact. He then passed the blame for this fantastical finger-pointing onto the lab that did the PM, cos that was what the PM showed according to him. But it was NOT what the PM showed.
 
KnockerNorton said:
The shot found was allegedly of the kind used to shoot foxes. Suppose a shooter somewhere is out lamping and picks up a pair of massive eyes that he thinks is a fox, then shoots at it. He maybe had no idea it was an eagle owl. That isn't a crime. QUOTE]

Yes it is, actually. It is the shooter's responsibility to know what they are shooting at. Every time a lamping gamekeeper in Scotland shoots a Wildcat - and it happens - a crime is committed. Ditto every time a daylight wildfowler knocks down a Garganey.

I'm sure you knew that really.

John
Click to expand...
 
Farnboro John said:
KnockerNorton said:
The shot found was allegedly of the kind used to shoot foxes. Suppose a shooter somewhere is out lamping and picks up a pair of massive eyes that he thinks is a fox, then shoots at it. He maybe had no idea it was an eagle owl. That isn't a crime. QUOTE]

Yes it is, actually. It is the shooter's responsibility to know what they are shooting at. Every time a lamping gamekeeper in Scotland shoots a Wildcat - and it happens - a crime is committed. Ditto every time a daylight wildfowler knocks down a Garganey.

I'm sure you knew that really.

John
Click to expand...


not if they genuinely believed it. You have to prove intent or recklessness, or at least convince a magistrate/jury. In England & Wales anyway.
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