Straight or angled scope (1 Viewer)

Tringa45 · Mar 28, 2019

jring said:
People think my zip tie is silly only until I have used it to aim in a second... and then I can even offer them a look through my scope without having to change the tripod height (and loosing the target) for each person.

Joachim,
Very valid for that application, but I'm guessing that if you have used an aiming device for years, you personally probably don't need it any longer.
Swarovski gave me an ATX aiming device for my ATM but I don't bother with it any more. My aiming problems are confined to the night sky and viewing the sun with a solar filter, both of which rule out cable tie type sights. Then I usually use an astro adapter and plop in a 28 mm RKE as a finder.

John

Blue72 · Mar 28, 2019

jring said:
People think my zip tie is silly only until I have used it to aim in a second... and then I can even offer them a look through my scope without having to change the tripod height (and loosing the target) for each person.

People having no problems aiming their bins is not really the same - you have a wide fov there and scan through the bins.

Joachim

I’ve tried the zip tie method. But since I’m a shooter I’m conditioned to using “natural point of aim” method. Zip ties and angled spotting scopes break your “natural point of aim” and you need to settle your body back in again.

Hauksen · Mar 28, 2019

Hi John,

Tringa45 said:
Very valid for that application, but I'm guessing that if you have used an aiming device for years, you personally probably don't need it any longer.

In my opinion, it comes down to the required accuracy. Motor skills can get very accurate with training, but the angular accuracy is limited if not supported by an aiming device.

To accurately point a scope at a Common Snipe at 100 m, the first time, every time, in my opinion one needs an aiming device.

Regards,

Henning

dalat · Mar 28, 2019

jring said:
People think my zip tie is silly only until I have used it to aim in a second...

Absolutely agree :t: I'm a big fan of the zip tie. If you tried it and don't like it, you have done it wrongly :-O

I'm sure with my angled scope and zip tie I beat anyone with a straight scope in speed of aiming B

Piece of cake to pick out a tiny raptor circling in the sky or a sunbird perched in the canopy above, with all the advantages of the angled scope.

Blue72 · Mar 28, 2019

dalat said:
Absolutely agree :t: I'm a big fan of the zip tie. If you tried it and don't like it, you have done it wrongly :-O

I'm sure with my angled scope and zip tie I beat anyone with a straight scope in speed of aiming B

Piece of cake to pick out a tiny raptor circling in the sky or a sunbird perched in the canopy above, with all the advantages of the angled scope.

Anyone who shoots shotguns would tell you that pointing is much much faster then aiming at moving targets. Aiming causes you to miss

Hauksen · Mar 28, 2019

Hi,

Dd61999 said:
Anyone who shoots shotguns would tell you that pointing is much much faster then aiming at moving targets. Aiming causes you to miss

I don't presume you shoot your shotgun from a tripod, do you?

Regards,

Henning

jring · Mar 28, 2019

Dd61999 said:
Anyone who shoots shotguns would tell you that pointing is much much faster then aiming at moving targets. Aiming causes you to miss

Depending on what you shoot at with your shotgun, we're getting dangerously close to topics not tolerated on birdforum... so please excuse that most of the residents here are not very well versed in target acquisition via pointing...

Joachim

luckmurph · Mar 28, 2019

So.....how do you do the cable tie trick?

Hauksen · Mar 28, 2019

Hi,

luckmurph said:
So.....how do you do the cable tie trick?

I believe this is a pretty good explanation:

https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=99084&highlight=kimmo+cable+tie

Personally, I haven't tried the cable tie, but other aiming aids - such as reflex sights:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3002868

Regards,

Henning

jring · Mar 28, 2019

luckmurph said:
So.....how do you do the cable tie trick?

Put a long cable tie around the front of your scope (preferably not around a sliding lens hood for obvious reasons) and bend it so the end points straight up.

Then point your scope at some far away but easily visible target and then aim over the highest point of the eyecup and the cable tie and mark the targets vertical position on the cable tie with a sharpie and later cut it off at that point.

Obviously this might shift a bit, so it's a good idea to quickly zero it at the start of a birding tour... it is also not as accurate as iron sights but at least for me good enough to quickly aim the scope well enough that the bird is inside the field of view on the first try - and I tend to keep my scope at the maximum magnification of 52x and scan with bins.

Joachim

luckmurph · Mar 28, 2019

Brilliant thanks guys!!

Blue72 · Apr 2, 2019

Another reason for straight. If you have binoculars mounted on your tripod. You can quick release and mount a straight spotting scope with no adjustments, as you would with a angled spotter

Hauksen · Apr 2, 2019

Hi,

Dd61999 said:
Another reason for straight. If you have binoculars mounted on your tripod. You can quick release and mount a straight spotting scope with no adjustments, as you would with a angled spotter

Do you mean ergonomical adjustments to be able to view at all, or do you mean sightline adjustments in order to keep the bird in sight?

Regards,

Henning

Blue72 · Apr 7, 2019

Hauksen said:
Hi,

Do you mean ergonomical adjustments to be able to view at all, or do you mean sightline adjustments in order to keep the bird in sight?

Regards,

Henning

Both, which is important for those who understand and practice natural point of aim

Hauksen · Apr 7, 2019

Hi,

Dd61999 said:
Both, which is important for those who understand and practice natural point of aim

If your mounting is precise enough to allow repeatable re-mounting, it doesn't matter if you replace the binoculars with a straight or an angled scope because both will drop into the same objective axis alignement as the binoculars. No advantage for the straight scope here.

With regard to the ergonomic alignment ... the geometric displacement between the correct eye positions for using my 8 x 42 binoculars and the straight Nikon ED50 comes down to 65 mm. That's enough to require a re-adjustment of your seating position for relaxed viewing, and with a straight scopes' requirement for precise eye placement, probably of the tripod height as well if you're observing towards the treetops, as the original poster intends to.

As the Nikon ED50 is one of the smallest serious scopes on the market, for about any other straight scope one might use the difference is going to be even larger. I have some experience with a straight Leica Televid 77, and from memory I'd say it easily adds another 100 mm to the length difference.

In short, I wouldn't recommend a straight scope for the reasons you quoted.

Regards,

Henning

Blue72 · Apr 7, 2019

Hauksen said:
Hi,

If your mounting is precise enough to allow repeatable re-mounting, it doesn't matter if you replace the binoculars with a straight or an angled scope because both will drop into the same objective axis alignement as the binoculars. No advantage for the straight scope here.

With regard to the ergonomic alignment ... the geometric displacement between the correct eye positions for using my 8 x 42 binoculars and the straight Nikon ED50 comes down to 65 mm. That's enough to require a re-adjustment of your seating position for relaxed viewing, and with a straight scopes' requirement for precise eye placement, probably of the tripod height as well if you're observing towards the treetops, as the original poster intends to.

As the Nikon ED50 is one of the smallest serious scopes on the market, for about any other straight scope one might use the difference is going to be even larger. I have some experience with a straight Leica Televid 77, and from memory I'd say it easily adds another 100 mm to the length difference.

In short, I wouldn't recommend a straight scope for the reasons you quoted.

Regards,

Henning

Natural point of aim has nothing to do with relaxed viewing (although it might result in one but not always) it has to do with proper body and eye alignment to the target which is the same with optics or without. Switching to a angled scoped requires much bigger adjustments in body position and tripod adjustments from binoculars to scope.

Anyone who uses this method while shooting knows the advantage of a straight scope and is almost impossible with an angled scope because now your dealing with two different natural points of aim. Naked eye angle view and angled scope view

Don’t believe me take an Appleseed course and put a angled scope on your rifle. You will be miserable and have the lowest score in the class

I don’t recommend either, I say the user should try both and see what works best for them. If they are a marksman, they might immediately see the benefit of a straight scope

Hauksen · Apr 7, 2019

Hi,

Dd61999 said:
Natural point of aim has nothing to do with relaxed viewing (although it might result in one but not always) it has to do with proper body and eye alignment to the target which is the same with optics or without.

Relaxed viewing is what you're after if you're sitting in a tent and are viewing birds up in the canopy, which is what the thread opener had in mind.

Your suggestion that you can swap a pair of binoculars against a straight scope with no adjustment without affecting body and eye alignment doesn't work because of the geometrical eyepiece displacement I pointed out. (You might be able to hunch and strain for a moment to make it work temporarily, but that's not a substitute for proper body and eye alignment.)

Throwing in "natural point of aim" isn't going to change that, and your suggestion of mounting an angled scope on a rifle completely misses the point since what Joachim suggested was to use a "straight" aiming device to aim the angled scope, not the angled scope to aim anything else.

Regards,

Henning

Blue72 · Apr 7, 2019

Hauksen said:
Hi,

Relaxed viewing is what you're after if you're sitting in a tent and are viewing birds up in the canopy, which is what the thread opener had in mind.

Your suggestion that you can swap a pair of binoculars against a straight scope with no adjustment without affecting body and eye alignment doesn't work because of the geometrical eyepiece displacement I pointed out. (You might be able to hunch and strain for a moment to make it work temporarily, but that's not a substitute for proper body and eye alignment.)

Throwing in "natural point of aim" isn't going to change that, and your suggestion of mounting an angled scope on a rifle completely misses the point since what Joachim suggested was to use a "straight" aiming device to aim the angled scope, not the angled scope to aim anything else.

Regards,

Henning

It seems you do not understand natural point of aim. Otherwise you wouldn’t have said the things you said.

If your happy with your angled scope, great! You found what’s best for you

Forums have used your arguments in convincing me to buy a angled scope and it turned out to be an expensive mistake in the past. Just trying to help someone else from doing the same.

I’m bringing awareness to those who do understand natural point of aim and would possibly like to transfer those skills to a spotting scope.

Hauksen · Apr 8, 2019

Hi,

Dd61999 said:
It seems you do not understand natural point of aim. Otherwise you wouldn’t have said the things you said.

Maybe I'd be able to understand why you think "natural point of aim" has any relevance if you'd actually try to describe the technique instead of just invoking its name.

I'm pretty sure though that I'd still stick to my guns in pretty much every point I made, since they aren't much affected by optics pointing style intricacies.

Dd61999 said:
Forums have used your arguments in convincing me to buy a angled scope and it turned out to be an expensive mistake in the past. Just trying to help someone else from doing the same.

If you want to help other people to avoid "an expensive mistakes", the thing to do is to describe your specific application, and why you didn't manage to point your angled scope at the birds with any kind of an acceptable success rate. You'd not be the first person to find that difficult, so really nothing to be ashamed of.

Regards,

Henning

Blue72 · Apr 8, 2019

Hauksen said:
Hi,

Maybe I'd be able to understand why you think "natural point of aim" has any relevance if you'd actually try to describe the technique instead of just invoking its name.

I'm pretty sure though that I'd still stick to my guns in pretty much every point I made, since they aren't much affected by optics pointing style intricacies.

If you want to help other people to avoid "an expensive mistakes", the thing to do is to describe your specific application, and why you didn't manage to point your angled scope at the birds with any kind of an acceptable success rate. You'd not be the first person to find that difficult, so really nothing to be ashamed of.

Regards,

Henning

I don’t understand why you make an argument against straight spotting scope if you don’t know what natural point of aim is in the first place. Your discrediting something that can be beneficial for those already trained in it.

I’m not a teacher, someone is much better taking a course or learning on their own how to utilize NPA. There is plenty of information out there.

NPA is taking advantage of the way your eyes and body parts naturally want to operate. Resisting muscle movement and utilizing your bones instead for stable and correct views

When you set up behind the optic and relax, your view is going to be pointed somewhere. When you have correct natural point of aim (NPA), the view will be on target even if you close your eyes for ten seconds and reopen them again. Your body eyesight and optic are in perfect alignment. If you reopen your eyes and the optic is not in perfect alignment. your body is out of alignment

While angled spotters are fiddling around with silly zip ties. The straight spotters are already on target because the view is in the same alignment naked eye or with the straight spotting scope

Straight or angled scope (1 Viewer)

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