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Buteo (1 Viewer)

wedejaz

Paukštukas
Hello,

Yesterday I met this Buteo bird.
Anyone happens to help me out with his last name?

The original idea was Buteo buteo vulpinus. Either very dark Buteo buteo.

Cheers and feathers crossed :)
 

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But hasn't vulpinus recently been redefined to include any Buteo buteo that migrates more than a few km*, regardless of what it looks like? That's certainly what the map in the new edition of the Collins Bird Guide shows: everything east of the Baltic and the Polish east border, so therefore including this bird.

* Slight exaggeration for effect. But only very slight!
 
But hasn't vulpinus recently been redefined to include any Buteo buteo that migrates more than a few km*, regardless of what it looks like? That's certainly what the map in the new edition of the Collins Bird Guide shows: everything east of the Baltic and the Polish east border, so therefore including this bird.

* Slight exaggeration for effect. But only very slight!

sounds very reasonable as field identification in many ‘pure’ vulpinus difficult and in all intergrades impossible. Any source available? Maybe defining vulpinus as subspecies spending boreal winter in Africa seems more reasonable though, thus any Common Buzzard still in Europe after mid October would be per definition ssp buteo, how easy that would be!
 
sounds very reasonable as field identification in many ‘pure’ vulpinus difficult and in all intergrades impossible. Any source available? Maybe defining vulpinus as subspecies spending boreal winter in Africa seems more reasonable though, thus any Common Buzzard still in Europe after mid October would be per definition ssp buteo, how easy that would be!
I think it's been discussed on the taxonomy forum, not sure how long ago, or if not there, on threads about the Collins guide. All I know offhand for sources is the new maps in the Collins guide.
 
I think it's been discussed on the taxonomy forum, not sure how long ago, or if not there, on threads about the Collins guide. All I know offhand for sources is the new maps in the Collins guide.

I spoke with Dick forseman about this when we had a couple very red tailed birds on my patch in Russia. He said that we really have a very poor understanding of the range and movements of pure vulpinus.

There are so many hybrids, all over the place and it's often impossible to know if you're looking at a pure vulpinus or not.


A
 
Hi Andy,

There are so many hybrids, all over the place and it's often impossible to know if you're looking at a pure vulpinus or not.

Considering that vulpinus is a subspecies, wouldn't it be more appropriate to consider it "typical" rather than "pure", since generally subspecies would be expected to mix? Quite a number of naive assumptions I put into that question, so please correct me if necessary :)

Corvus corone and Corvus cornix and especially their hybrids regularly give me headaches here in Germany. Here's a good illustration of the "continuum" of types between the "pure"/"typical" individuals:

http://files.biolovision.net/www.or...blaetter/Anleitungen/Hybridkraehen-Duquet.jpg

(At the bottom of the German page, there is also a link to a Swiss site featuring a French article with more pictures and an English summary :)

Regards,

Henning
 
Hi Andy,



Considering that vulpinus is a subspecies, wouldn't it be more appropriate to consider it "typical" rather than "pure", since generally subspecies would be expected to mix? Quite a number of naive assumptions I put into that question, so please correct me if necessary :)

Corvus corone and Corvus cornix and especially their hybrids regularly give me headaches here in Germany. Here's a good illustration of the "continuum" of types between the "pure"/"typical" individuals:

http://files.biolovision.net/www.or...blaetter/Anleitungen/Hybridkraehen-Duquet.jpg

(At the bottom of the German page, there is also a link to a Swiss site featuring a French article with more pictures and an English summary :)

Regards,

Henning

Hi Henning,
the thing is that a genuine vulpinus within range should be fairly straightforward, it's birds outside the known range that cause headaches I think?

Many people are hoping, I'm sure some in fact some maybe expecting (?) that vulpinus will be split as Steppe Buzzard, this is the reason that it creates so much interest.

I agree thought that Common Buzzard is such a remarkably variable species, describing any race as 'pure' may be misleading but it's the possiblity of full species status, that leads to the statement I think.


A
 
Last edited:
Hi Henning,
the thing is that a genuine vulpinus within range should be fairly straightforward, it's birds outside the known range that cause headaches I think?

Many people are hoping, I'm sure some in fact some maybe expecting (?) that vulpinus will be split as Steppe Buzzard, this is the reason that it creates so much interest.

I agree thought that Common Buzzard is such a remarkably variable species, describing any race as 'pure' may be misleading but it's the possiblity of full species status, that leads to the statement I think.


A

I agree that is the hope. The discussion in this thread makes sound like vulpinus should become synonymous with nominate ...

Niels
 
I agree that is the hope. The discussion in this thread makes sound like vulpinus should become synonymous with nominate ...

Niels

I'd agree on that. Buteo buteo might even includes cirtensis of North Africa...

Anyway, sub-species or synonymous, an isolated vulpinus is not identifiable as such, all "typical" birds can still have a proportion of B. b. buteo in it...
 
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