Interesting Swift Model (1 Viewer)

Hi Ed and others

There is a rather interesting Swift porro on UK area of the famous bidding site at present
Model is a 9 x 40 Albany MK11 445 ft at 1000 yds

Seems like a variant on Audubon ?

Bit puzzling this one other more knowledgeable folk may know more

Regards
Rich

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Swift-Albany-...605697508QQcategoryZ10955QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Hmm....445 ft at 1000 yds. If accurate that works out to a 76 degree AFOV. Ed, I know it's 5:30 AM in California, but wake up and find your credit card!

richt said:

Hi Ed and others

There is a rather interesting Swift porro on UK area of the famous bidding site at present
Model is a 9 x 40 Albany MK11 445 ft at 1000 yds

Seems like a variant on Audubon ?

Bit puzzling this one other more knowledgeable folk may know more

Regards
Rich

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Swift-Albany-...605697508QQcategoryZ10955QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Click to expand...

Hi Richt and Henry,

According to Humphrey H. Swift (see our article pg. 2), in 1972 Swift entered into a joint venture with with Pyser, U.K. to service Europe. Type 3a,b Audubon construction appeared thereafter. Like Swift USA, Swift-Pyser marketed a Mark II series, which is associated with their premier line. Usually, but not always, Swift-Pyser products also had a blue (or gold) ribbon. As we are now discovering, "SP" and "SPWA" were designations used by Swift-Pyser (i.e., SP) on their own series, one of which was also a classic Audubon. They also developed configurations, such as this 9x40, which their American counterpart did not.

Anyway, in the strict sense, I would not think of this as an Audubon variant, — although it does come from the European Mark II series, has the same 445 ft. FOV as the Type 3 Audubon, and is of Type 3 construction (see strap rings). With only one exception (the beautiful 7x35 model 825 roof), "Audubon" has been reserved exclusively for 8.5x44 configurations. That includes the rather ugly Model 827 and the current 828 HHS.

Thanks for the head's up on this guy,
Ed

elkcub said:

Hi Richt and Henry,

According to Humphrey H. Swift (see our article pg. 2), in 1972 Swift entered into a joint venture with with Pyser, U.K. to service Europe. Type 3a,b Audubon construction appeared thereafter. Like Swift USA, Swift-Pyser marketed a Mark II series, which is associated with their premier line. Usually, but not always, Swift-Pyser products also had a blue (or gold) ribbon. As we are now discovering, "SP" and "SPWA" were designations used by Swift-Pyser (i.e., SP) on their own series, one of which was also a classic Audubon. They also developed configurations, such as this 9x40, which their American counterpart did not.

Anyway, in the strict sense, I would not think of this as an Audubon variant, — although it does come from the European Mark II series, has the same 445 ft. FOV as the Type 3 Audubon, and is of Type 3 construction (see strap rings). With only one exception (the beautiful 7x35 model 825 roof), "Audubon" has been reserved exclusively for 8.5x44 configurations. That includes the rather ugly Model 827 and the current 828 HHS.

Thanks for the head's up on this guy,
Ed

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Hi Ed

As a further note on interesting Swift models i came across a rare find today in a small camera shop in North East UK
Brand new with box and all accesories 8 x 42 Saratoga Multi coated 435 fov and the serial no had 81 in so presumably this was a 25 year old binocular still sat new in a display cabinet !
Had a look thru and it had that trademark Swift easy wide view it also seemed nice and bright
I did consider buying this bin but the dealer had it tagged with a very old looking price sticker at £229 and wouldnt budge
Dont really know the value but it was a nice view and multi coated (not fully multi coated) so perhaps a later Audubon with 8.5 mag might be better in low light

There cant be many of these "new" 8 x 42 Saratoga's left about though

Regards
Rich

Hi Richt,

You found one of the four Swift SPWA's developed by Pyser U.K. The other models were 8x36, 9x42 and 10x42. I own the 9x42 and it's of the best binoculars made by Swift ever, at least on par with the Audubon 8.5x44 (804) but in my case (taking sample variation into account) even better. This 9x42 uses exactly the same body as the 804 but is a bit lighter. Because of the relatively independent policy of the Swift European branch these SPWA's (there were SP's also, in a slightly lower quality range) were marketed in Europe almost exclusively, and as Swift USA were reluctant to add them to their already considerable program you won't find them in the US. With at least one notable exception, the 10x42 Condor, which is probably the SPWA 10x42 in US disguise. I say probably because it looks exactly like it, and with regard to quality I know of one collector and connoiseur of Japanese optics who rates this Condor as high as the 10x50 Audubon/Kestrel.
There are not too much SPWA's around but my guess is the whole series is of exceptional quality. In the last couple of years I saw the 8x36 offered on eBay only once, but this week I was lucky enough to hold one dismantled specimen (the objectives were missing but the body was intact) and it's certainly one of the finest small bins ever produced.
So my advice is to check those 8x42's out some more, compare with your own bins, take your time, get friendly with the seller and see if he is willing to lower his price. Of course the price is far beyond their current market value, but with regard to quality-price ratio the seller is probably right!
Good luck.

Renze

Oh yes, the names of those SPWA's (and adopted children) is a mess. The same names (often names already in existence for completely different binoculars) being used for different configurations in different countries etc. The Saratoga for instance was once an 8x40 in the US, and in Holland the Saratoga was used for the 8x36 SPWA!

Richt,

Thanks for continuing the thread. As fate would have it there is an 8x42 Saratoga on eBay right now and I'll bet you can get it for a lot less than your dealer quoted: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7616860559&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1

As Renze pointed out, Europeans were presented with a different Swift lineup than Americans, with only partially overlapping models. In this instance the Saratoga shares the same classic blue ribbon and construction as the Type 3 Audubon. Being a Mk II it would have a 5-element Erlfe eyepiece and fully coated (FC) optics, without multi-coating. The American Mk II series corresponds to Type 2 Audubon construction. My 1980 catalog showns seven models including the Audubon, and I own a Commodore 7x50 with 505 ft. FOV. Americans were also offered a Mk I "Nighthawk" 8x40WA with a 499 ft. field. Given the wide FOV it probably also used a 5-element eyepiece.

What strikes me about all the older Swift models of is how beefy and well made they are. Reiterating what Renze said, they are of "exceptional quality," and probably never to be made again. I've been extremely fortunate to buy five different models on eBay, all in near perfect condition. My oldest Type 1c Audubon arrived covered with dust from the glue that had totally deteriorated inside the leather case after 40+ years; but a blower removed all the dust and a single drop of gun oil restored the focus control to butter smooth. I think they used bronze sleeve bearings. The optics on each model are really outstanding, and it's so easy to become addicted to the wide-angle view. Please let us know if you pick up the 8x42 Saratoga.

Regards,
ED

Hi Ed and Richt,

Stop! Watch out!
Please see my last remark about names, because the confusion is in play here already. Ed, the Saratoga on eBay is exactly the one I had in mind when writing 'The Saratoga for instance was once an 8x40 in the US'. My mistake here is in 'in the US'. Of course the 8x40 Saratoga was not only distributed in the US but in Europe as well (blue ribbon=European).
So this 8x40 Saratoga is certainly not identical to the 8x42 SPWA Saratoga, it's a completely different animal!

I think what happened was that when the in the 1980's the design change took place from the older 'heavyweights' to the much lighter and easier to handle bodies, some models were discontinued completely. But of course their names were still there, ready to be used. So when Pyser started to develop a whole new range of binoculars, simply marked with SPWA (Swift-Pyser Wide Angle) + the configuration, those old names could be added to them. However, as far as I know, only the SPWA 8x42 was really marked - in print, on the lid - as Saratoga. The other SPWA's didn't carry names on the binoculars, but as this was felt impractical names were added to them in catalogues. With confusing results: the Dutch Saratoga (SPWA 8x36) for instance is not the British Saratoga (8x42 SPWA) while both are of course different from the Saratoga 8x40 (Mark II/blue ribbon).

cheers,

Renze

Renze de Vries said:

Hi Ed and Richt,

Stop! Watch out!
Please see my last remark about names, because the confusion is in play here already. Ed, the Saratoga on eBay is exactly the one I had in mind when writing 'The Saratoga for instance was once an 8x40 in the US'. My mistake here is in 'in the US'. Of course the 8x40 Saratoga was not only distributed in the US but in Europe as well (blue ribbon=European).
So this 8x40 Saratoga is certainly not identical to the 8x42 SPWA Saratoga, it's a completely different animal!

I think what happened was that when the in the 1980's the design change took place from the older 'heavyweights' to the much lighter and easier to handle bodies, some models were discontinued completely. But of course their names were still there, ready to be used. So when Pyser started to develop a whole new range of binoculars, simply marked with SPWA (Swift-Pyser Wide Angle) + the configuration, those old names could be added to them. However, as far as I know, only the SPWA 8x42 was really marked - in print, on the lid - as Saratoga. The other SPWA's didn't carry names on the binoculars, but as this was felt impractical names were added to them in catalogues. With confusing results: the Dutch Saratoga (SPWA 8x36) for instance is not the British Saratoga (8x42 SPWA) while both are of course different from the Saratoga (8x40 Mark II/blue ribbon).

cheers,

Renze

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Hi Renze and Ed

Well first off let me congratulate you both on a very strong knowledge of these binoculars and thanks for all the info
Renze i think your on the ball with the 8 x 42 info as the binocular body i tried yesterday was certainly smaller than the very early Swift's
It was multi coated rather than fully coated or fully multi coated so i think 1981 would seem about right for manufacture
This one is brand new on the display and was hidden away behind numerous Minox Pentax and Olympus models but i seized the chance to look thru it
I had around 20 mins only as i was working but the fov was very obviously much greater than the other models i mentioned above
I looked thru Pentax and Minox porros and roofs and have to say the Swift gave the easiest most satisfying overall view though perhaps the cheap Pentax porro (8 x 40) performed best for price £70
I didnt think it was quite as "wow" image wise as the 804 Audubon 's i have encountered but only marginally not so and i was limited in what i could view also these are 8 x 42 not 8.5 x 44 so the image scale presumably is lower and there is a little less light collected
Being hyper critical ( as we all are at times) the image was a little edge soft but i think this is characteristic of wide field bins and you had to look for it before it became noticeable
Holding wise i found it quite comfortable but then again i'm a big porro user
Basically when i compared outside the shop with some £400 Minox i preferred the Swift


Renze i think i will take your advice and re-check this out when i am up there in a couple of weeks (i dont think it will sell quickly at £229) the camera shop chap said all the other models sell more regularly though the Swift is excellent
I may try to work on him as regards price because even though rare and in new condition a new 820 Audubon can be had for £180-£200 in UK and these are very very old stock
Not sure as to this binoculars real worth but i intend to take my Nikon E11 8 x 30 with me next time round as this is a very good wide angle 8 x binocular imho

Its still surprised me to see this model available at such a long time after manufacture perhaps its worth a purchase even as semi-collectable

Of course i am still toying with Ed's past tip off ref the 804 "new" fully multi coated Audubon availabilty in US
I have enquired and these are still available so may have to think sooner rather than later

Regards
Rich

Renze de Vries said:

Hi Ed and Richt,

Stop! Watch out!
Please see my last remark about names, because the confusion is in play here already. Ed, the Saratoga on eBay is exactly the one I had in mind when writing 'The Saratoga for instance was once an 8x40 in the US'. My mistake here is in 'in the US'. Of course the 8x40 Saratoga was not only distributed in the US but in Europe as well (blue ribbon=European).
So this 8x40 Saratoga is certainly not identical to the 8x42 SPWA Saratoga, it's a completely different animal!

I think what happened was that when the in the 1980's the design change took place from the older 'heavyweights' to the much lighter and easier to handle bodies, some models were discontinued completely. But of course their names were still there, ready to be used. So when Pyser started to develop a whole new range of binoculars, simply marked with SPWA (Swift-Pyser Wide Angle) + the configuration, those old names could be added to them. However, as far as I know, only the SPWA 8x42 was really marked - in print, on the lid - as Saratoga. The other SPWA's didn't carry names on the binoculars, but as this was felt impractical names were added to them in catalogues. With confusing results: the Dutch Saratoga (SPWA 8x36) for instance is not the British Saratoga (8x42 SPWA) while both are of course different from the Saratoga 8x40 (Mark II/blue ribbon).

cheers,

Renze

Click to expand...

Renze,

After reading your post thrice I couldn't help but think that we're talking about a semi-stochasitc, partially-coupled, dual-valued time series. One searches desperately for a common principle to tie the conundrums together, in effect, in search of an epiphany — maybe even a religious experience.

This morning, when I awoke, there it was starting me in the brain: Hiyoshi Kogaku, Ltd. These are the shadowy elven folk, who nobody really knows about, who researched, designed and made all of these binoculars! Swift and Pyser were really only the marketing moguls who added model numbers, names, and fancy detailing to the cover plates. So, who were the heroes, and who do we venerate?

Yes, I certainly agree with your analysis. The 8x40 "Saratoga" on eBay is clearly a large body, Type 3 construction, and the one you guys are talking about is apparently a Type 4. If made in 1981 it was probably advertised as "Multi-Coated Optics," since that's what the elven folk were producing at the time. Wouldn't it be nice to have accesss to Hiyoshi's production records (in English or Dutch)? But, since I'm unable to find even the remotest internet reference to them, they may have gone the way of the Great Auk at the turn of the millennium.

Enough rambling for me.

ED

elkcub said:

This morning, when I awoke, there it was starting me in the brain: Hiyoshi Kogaku, Ltd. These are the shadowy elven folk, who nobody really knows about, who researched, designed and made all of these binoculars! Swift and Pyser were really only the marketing moguls who added model numbers, names, and fancy detailing to the cover plates. So, who were the heroes, and who do we venerate?

Click to expand...

Agreed! We're overlooking the real designer! Japanese BF members, please join in!

About the serial number mentioned by Rich, this means that the SPWA's were in production for at least 5 years (my sn starts with 86)

Renze

Ranger 10x50's

Having just found this thread I'd like to bring it alive again! I'm going to copy and paste a report I've just put on CN, with a link to pics. Please answer either here or there. Obviously non CN members will find it easier to answer here. I will watch both sites.

Hi All!
I just received a pair of the above bins, bought off the 'bay. Stupidly, and uncharacteristically, I hadn't done a check on the web about these before purchase. When I did, it looked as though I'd made a bad mistake. The main reason I decided to buy them was, the seller indicated they were virtually new condition and had never been out of the house. Well he was right! Apart from a bit of dust and finger prints on the tops, they are immaculate. I was terrified when they arrived, because the packing was giving virtually no protection; just eighth inch foam wrapped round the case! In England, we all know how mail gets treated, however my concerns were ill founded. These are a cracking pair of bins! My first surpise, having previously handled old Audobons, was the weight; not heavy! The second surpise was the view; brilliant, literally! Once I'd got them set up, both inter occular and diopter, or at least as good as you can in ten minutes (it's my experience that it can take a week or two to get them perfect) I took a good look around. Firstly I tried them without glasses, which I normally wear; no problem. Next I rolled down the cups and tried them with my glasses; much to my surprise, if I had my glasses hard on, I could see the whole field!. Not really believing the definition I was seeing with these, I went and got my Nikon 8x32 HG's; no better!! Now before I got rid of my Swaro 8.5x42's, I did some extremely rigid testing between them and the Nikons; optically the Nikons were at least equal. Handling wise the Nikons won hands down. So, I hope you can see why I'm so surprised and pleased with these bins.
I have not been able to find pictures of another pair of these, if anybody reading have the same bins, I'd be very glad to hear from you; piccies of mine can be found via the below link. ANY comments will be gratefully received.
Cheers
Max
http://www.cloudynights.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=3253&ppuser=160349

This Ranger is different to the red ribbon pair I own. These look like the Audubon model rebadged?
Are they BaK4 prisms?

Simon S said:

This Ranger is different to the red ribbon pair I own. These look like the Audubon model rebadged?
Are they BaK4 prisms?

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Hi Simon,
No, it appears they're BaK7's. But regardless of that, I'm still impressed!
Being principally an astronomer these days, due to ill health preventing me from doing much walking, I can't wait to get these under the stars and star test them. That will be a big indicator of quality and collimation.
Cheers
Max

Hi Max,

Your binocular was made in 1991 by Hiyoshi Kogaku for Swift Pyser. The closest I can come to an advertising picture is from an earlier 1984 catalog, which shows a red dot FC 10x50 model. I assume this was upgraded by 1991 to your MC "Ranger," which still retains the red dot and a 325' FOV.

The equivalent of the 804 Audubon would be an 10x50 #826 Audubon/Kestrel which has a somewhat wider 367' FOV and shares the same optics. It or an equivalent might have been offered by Pyser in 1991, but I don't know.

In any case, you have a keeper. Have fun with it.

Ed

Ed, would they use high index Bak4 prisms?

elkcub said:

Hi Max,

Your binocular was made in 1991 by Hiyoshi Kogaku for Swift Pyser. The closest I can come to an advertising picture is from an earlier 1984 catalog, which shows a red dot FC 10x50 model. I assume this was upgraded by 1991 to your MC "Ranger," which still retains the red dot and a 325' FOV.

The equivalent of the 804 Audubon would be an 10x50 #826 Audubon/Kestrel which has a somewhat wider 367' FOV and shares the same optics. It or and equivalent might have been offered by Pyser in 1991, but I don't know.

In any case, you have a keeper. Have fun with it.

Ed

Click to expand...

Hi Ed,
Very many thanks for this extra info. This 'red dot' or in my case 'gold dot', does it have any significance, or is it purely for decoration?
Yes, I'll certainly be keeping these!
Thanks
Max

Timedrifter said:

Hi Ed,
Very many thanks for this extra info. This 'red dot' or in my case 'gold dot', does it have any significance, or is it purely for decoration?
Yes, I'll certainly be keeping these!
Thanks
Max

Click to expand...

Max,

What am I missing here? The dot on your CN posting looks reasonably red to me.

When you look at the exit pupil, does it resemble the left or the right picture? Left is BaK4, right is BK7 prisms.

The dot colors represent Swift or Swift-Pyser's effort to indicate the quality range of the product, with gold being the highest level. But they were quite inconsistent over the years, so I wouldn't put too much stock in it. The color categories were also different in Europe vs. N. America.

Ed

elkcub said:

Max,

What am I missing here? The dot on your CN posting looks reasonably red to me.

When you look at the exit pupil, does it resemble the left or the right picture? Left is BaK4, right is BK7 prisms.

The dot colors represent Swift or Swift-Pyser's effort to indicate the quality range of the product, with gold being the highest level. But they were quite inconsistent over the years, so I wouldn't put too much stock in it. The color categories were also different in Europe vs. N. America.

Ed

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Hi Ed,
Clearly a misunderstanding of terms. In the picture you've reproduced, what I see is a red 'badge'. I have that, and yet on the bottom of the hinge I have a small gold dome - dot.
My prisms are BaK 7's I think.
Cheers
Max

Hi Max,

The red badge is also called a red disk or a red dot. What you are referring to is a spring loaded cover that keeps debris out of the threaded tripod connector hole. We might think of it as a golden belly-button cover.

My MC 804R c.1986 had no badge/dot at all but sported blue lettering, blue objective cover rings, and a blue belly-button cover. :eek!:

Ed

NOW I understand! How do you access the tripod socket please?
Cheers
Max