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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Goshawks & Buzzards, UK (1 Viewer)

To the original poster, I see Goshawks regularly, often daily and have often seen them riding the thermals with Common Buzzard and Sparrowhawk, especially so in the early spring when territories are being re-established. It seems to be only when nesting is underway that there is any animosity from Gos towards other raptors invading their air space. Around the point when Gos chicks are a little too big for the female to brood, but too small to really react to other species presence I have often seen Gos attacking other raptors (particularly Buzzards) and have once been witness to female Gos taking a Buzzard out of the sky above the breeding territory.
So in a nutshell to the OP, yes Gos and other raptors do thermal together and it can happen at any time of the year, but in my experience is more likely before breeding properly gets underway, so you may well have seen a Gos with two Buzzards recently.
 
birderUK007 said:
I can say without a doubt that the bird was indeed CB size, that I was clear about in my original post. A Sparrowhawk joined the thermals a short while later and was obviously smaller.

I was more asking about the circumstances at which I found this bird (riding the thermals with 2 other CB), I hoped this forum was a place for me to learn more about a species I have had little contact with, I didn't think I was being "daft" by asking the question. Perhaps I should have placed this in the "Bird Behaviour" forum, I apologise for any confusion I might have made.

As I said in my original post though, was this behaviour something other birders had encountered? Is such a sight unheard of for this species? If so, is Tom's suggestion of a second calendar year bird circling with 2 adult CB the next most likely? I'm just trying to learn more about the habits of this bird in regard to what I saw and what it could also have been, I'm not after a 100% confirmation.
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Like Brian I spend a considerable amount of time on the lookout for raptors and am in danger of becoming something of a "Gosaholic!" I've seen Gos sharing thermals with eagles and vultures in Spain, but despite seeing them in the air at the same time as several buzzards on numerous occasions in the FOD I've never seen them share thermals - it's been my impression that the buzzards generally keep their distance from Goshawks (probably with good reason!)
 
Having just returned from the Forest of Dean (14/04), I saw plenty of buzzards thermalling from Symonds Yat Rock and New Fancy. At no point in my observations were they joined by Goshawks, or the far more noticeable Sparrowhawks in the area. The only other birds of prey to join them were Peregrines.
 

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We often see Goshawks and Buzzards in the same thermal at Symonds Yat Rock but normally any interaction is a juvenile Goshawk harassing Buzzards almost playfully.

In early March this year we had Buzzards, a Peregrine, a Sparrowhawk and a juvenile Gos all in the same thermal. Most of the interaction was Peregrine on Buzzard.

However I have attached a record shot of an adult Goshawk and Buzzard interaction from October last year.
 

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andyadcock said:
Totally agree, it's become de rigueur, a bit like Australian quizzical for some.

A
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Ditto; TV presenters are especially guilty of this crime against the English language, even respected ones! It shows how quickly 'hip' fads spread through society as one sheep follows another; it makes my blood boil.

RB
 
So ... is this is fast becoming a classic?

Usual suspects with accompanying argy-bargy, but not quite spiralling out of control (thermalling perhaps?) yet.

Light insults ... yes.

Going off-topic ... yes. Into English grammar/criticising the OP at present.

What is a bit weird is there is still some useful information in here, with some relevant replies.

What are we still missing?

;)
 
KenM said:
Unlike some, I don't think Goshawk ID relates to Rocket Science, particularly where you have a "known" size comparison to directly compare with (something that I for one have rarely had), and "presumed" experience of any possible confusion species.
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I think this is rather over egging it somewhat. I've witnessed several of quite experienced observers mis-identify Sparrowhawks as Goshawks in the past. I recall that the species remains something of a headache for county recorders. I know several expert and very active birders in my home county who've never seen a single Goshawk there (or a mere 1 or 2 in decades of birding) but equally know of far less experienced county observers who seem to trip over the species on an almost annual basis. Yes, once you see a big beefy female Goshawk, they're near unmistakable but until then they can be tricky. Even with experience smaller males can still be problematic for many. I'm fortunate to have seen them abroad where they're less infrequent but not all observers have this luxury.
 
John Cantelo said:
I think this is rather over egging it somewhat. I've witnessed several of quite experienced observers mis-identify Sparrowhawks as Goshawks in the past. I recall that the species remains something of a headache for county recorders. I know several expert and very active birders in my home county who've never seen a single Goshawk there (or a mere 1 or 2 in decades of birding) but equally know of far less experienced county observers who seem to trip over the species on an almost annual basis. Yes, once you see a big beefy female Goshawk, they're near unmistakable but until then they can be tricky. Even with experience smaller males can still be problematic for many. I'm fortunate to have seen them abroad where they're less infrequent but not all observers have this luxury.
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I think you pretty much sum up the matter.... it is frequent that Sparrowhawks are claimed as Goshawks, but much less frequent that Goshawks are misidentified as Sparrowhawks.

This is an unreasonable bias for a genuine ID issue.

I suspect the reason it remains a headache for some county recorders is that they have a fairly clear idea about the likelihood of sightings across their patches and making accurate decisions on sightings by observers they know, when these contradict known population data, is more of a social than a technical problem.

As far as interaction goes, Goshawks will beat up Buzzards in thermals if they feel like it and soar up with them before going about their own business elsewhere if they don't. But in the New Forest and Forest of Dean its always seemed to me that the initiative and advantage lies completely with the Gos!

At Symonds Yat it seems to me that the Peregrines suffice to put the Goshawks across the valley off coming near. I've always hoped on my visits to get the sort of close views I've had there of Peregrines and Buzzards, plus some very rapid tree-top level transits by Sparrowhawks, but I've never seen them do it yet. It seems armed neutrality and a demilitarised zone is the order of the day there.

They are always fascinating birds to watch.

John
 
Farnboro John said:
I think you pretty much sum up the matter.... it is frequent that Sparrowhawks are claimed as Goshawks, but much less frequent that Goshawks are misidentified as Sparrowhawks.

This is an unreasonable bias for a genuine ID issue.

I suspect the reason it remains a headache for some county recorders is that they have a fairly clear idea about the likelihood of sightings across their patches and making accurate decisions on sightings by observers they know, when these contradict known population data, is more of a social than a technical problem.

As far as interaction goes, Goshawks will beat up Buzzards in thermals if they feel like it and soar up with them before going about their own business elsewhere if they don't. But in the New Forest and Forest of Dean its always seemed to me that the initiative and advantage lies completely with the Gos!

At Symonds Yat it seems to me that the Peregrines suffice to put the Goshawks across the valley off coming near. I've always hoped on my visits to get the sort of close views I've had there of Peregrines and Buzzards, plus some very rapid tree-top level transits by Sparrowhawks, but I've never seen them do it yet. It seems armed neutrality and a demilitarised zone is the order of the day there.

They are always fascinating birds to watch.

John
Click to expand...

I once found a newly fledged Goshawk in a Moscow park, it was in a wood but just 2m from the ground with the adult sat, calling above.

I approached to within 5m before it struggled up higher in to the trees and it was huge!


A
 
Farnboro John said:
I think you pretty much sum up the matter....
it is frequent that Sparrowhawks are claimed as Goshawks, but much less frequent that Goshawks are misidentified as Sparrowhawks.
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Many years ago I was driving along a country road and espied in a lay-by, a van, and a falconer with a BOP on his wrist! Out of curiousity, I pulled over just ahead of him, got out the car, walked slowly towards him and said "that's a fine female Sparrowhawk", to which he replied "she is a he, and he...is a Goshawk!

This was the closest that I'd ever been to an Accipter, thus I enquired to it's size and was told 17". Thus I've always been mindful of (in this extreme case) the almost "fine line" that there (can be) regarding any potential overlap...and that was standing just a few feet away, that would approximate to a circa 14% difference between the contenders.

Add on a moving bird, appearing and disappearing c100m away in less than favourable light, and you'll have a very problematic subject to deal with, equally I've found size variability between Sprawk gender, occasionally....a big male or a small female I've asked myself, again, often in less than favourable light and compounded with brevity of view.....a-a-a-a-h! the joys of Birding.
 
Farnboro John said:
I think you pretty much sum up the matter.... it is frequent that Sparrowhawks are claimed as Goshawks, but much less frequent that Goshawks are misidentified as Sparrowhawks.

This is an unreasonable bias for a genuine ID issue.

I suspect the reason it remains a headache for some county recorders is that they have a fairly clear idea about the likelihood of sightings across their patches and making accurate decisions on sightings by observers they know, when these contradict known population data, is more of a social than a technical problem.

John
Click to expand...

Thank you, John. I in turn wholeheartedly agree with your post.

As for the frequency with which different species of raptor can be seen together this seems to present no problem in southern Spain.
 
KenM said:
Many years ago I was driving along a country road and espied in a lay-by, a van, and a falconer with a BOP on his wrist! Out of curiousity, I pulled over just ahead of him, got out the car, walked slowly towards him and said "that's a fine female Sparrowhawk", to which he replied "she is a he, and he...is a Goshawk!

This was the closest that I'd ever been to an Accipter, thus I enquired to it's size and was told 17". Thus I've always been mindful of (in this extreme case) the almost "fine line" that there (can be) regarding any potential overlap...and that was standing just a few feet away, that would approximate to a circa 14% difference between the contenders.

Add on a moving bird, appearing and disappearing c100m away in less than favourable light, and you'll have a very problematic subject to deal with, equally I've found size variability between Sprawk gender, occasionally....a big male or a small female I've asked myself, again, often in less than favourable light and compounded with brevity of view.....a-a-a-a-h! the joys of Birding.
Click to expand...

I'm now thoroughly confused where you stand on the difficulty or otherwise of Goshawk identification!
 
John Cantelo said:
I'm now thoroughly confused where you stand on the difficulty or otherwise of Goshawk identification!
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My reply was to Farnboro John's post regarding very few people mistaking Gos for Spar, and I was quoting a personal experience to that effect.

I think it's fair to say that most observations of said A.gentilis are probably from known breeding areas during the Spring when the birds are displaying?

I don't have difficulty ID'ing Gos, as has been stated...females can be glaringly obvious as also males can be, especially if relatively close as my images show.

However there will be numerous occasions (particularly for me) living opposite a "woodland conduit" for a number of species where one has to factor in brevity of view (time and canopy impediment), ambient lighting not to mention distance, which are often all aligned against one, thus making any conclusive ID problematic.

Your comments regarding "good birders" never having seen, or rarely seen doesn't surprise me at all, outside the short display period, they are in my experience "stealth personified", my advantage over the years has been living at canopy level.

Within the wood and at ground level would have reduced "any" potential sightings in all probability, with the very odd exception....to zero.

Cheers
 
Jos Stratford said:
Where you live and in some other areas perhaps, but despite your wish on various threads to portray it as so, clearly not across the UK as a whole.
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Populations of many raptor species are severely depleted across the UK as a result of historical and ongoing persecution, with gamekeepers and their employers as the prime culprit. The effects can be apparent even at great distance (time & space) from where the persecution is actually occurring by preventing the natural increase and expansion of populations. E.g. a major factor in the absence of Golden Eagles from England & Wales is their persecution in Scotland.
 
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