• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements (1 Viewer)

Nikon Sendai factory tour: A rare chance to see Z7 production

For those not familiar with modern eloctronics manufacture, this article on the new Z7 offers an interesting overview. It seems that finished units may be being stockpiled awaiting the final release version of the firmware to be formulated, downloaded and tested.

If there are those with quaint notions of final QC checks being used to make sure of the quality, let me 'assure' you that Quality Assurance (QA) is an integral and necessary part of each and every step in the manufacturing process. Any company not doing that has about as much chance of surviving as British Leyland. :eek!:

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/09/01/nikon-sendai-factory-tour-z7-production




Chosun :gh:
 
Interesting size comparison between the new Canon EOS R mirrorless announced today, and the Nikon Z6, and the Sony a7R III ..... makes the Nikon somewhat of a goldilocks body :)
https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eos-r-visual-size-comparison-against-the-sony-a7-iii-and-nikon-z6/

I am quite puzzled though why Canon and Nikon didn't get together and develop a common size mount given the similarities in flange diameter 54mm vs 55mm, and the flange focal distance 20mm vs 16mm ...... seems like a luxuriously extravagant waste of resources in a finitely resourced world.



Chosun :gh:
 
With the (now) plethora of mirrorless buying options available, some good buying decision advice by Thom - and the article also shows a handy mount geometry comparison (not sure if it is to scale or not). As I mentioned previously, the Nikon Z mount has the most head room. It will be interesting to see what they make of it.
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/canon-adds-a-full-frame.html

Lenses (native) , or class leading (as in the case of the new lightweight Canon supertelephotos) also play a big part in the decision making process. No doubt Sony is working on a leading 600mm f4, ....... but I think Nikon had best pull their fingers out ! :cat:




Chosun :gh:
 
These are all full frame cameras, and I still think full frame is not the ideal format for bird photography... With birds, most of the time that extra area on the full frame sensor ends up wasted. Right now I'm still using APS-C or mu-4/3 cameras for bird photography and I expect that will remain true. Someday a full frame camera working in crop mode with high pixel density and a great EVF might be equivalent to smaller format alternatives in every important way, but it will always be more expensive, too.

The ray tracing diagram showing the inner angle for the different mounts is interesting. I sort of doubt Nikon's 1mm wider mount "advantage" compared to Canon is that important. It really depends how well the new lenses are designed overall, and how quickly and smoothly they roll them out... Both the Nikon and Canon mounts are going to offer the possibility for slightly better image quality, both better resolution and less vignetting, but I think these gains might be more important or noticeable for short lenses than for telephoto.

It's fun to discuss all the latest greatest cameras and lenses but in the end, I keep coming back to this truth for me personally anyway: Cameras are tools. My existing tools are already incredibly capable. What I need in order to get more great images and more fulfillment from my hobby is not to "upgrade" my tools, but simply to get out more often, get more practice, more lucky opportunities. Plus I still have a lot to learn on the post-processing side.

Dave
 
Last edited:
These are all full frame cameras, and I still think full frame is not the ideal format for bird photography... With birds, most of the time that extra area on the full frame sensor ends up wasted. Right now I'm still using APS-C or mu-4/3 cameras for bird photography and I expect that will remain true. Someday a full frame camera working in crop mode with high pixel density and a great EVF might be equivalent to smaller format alternatives in every important way, but it will always be more expensive, too.

The ray tracing diagram showing the inner angle for the different mounts is interesting. I sort of doubt Nikon's 1mm wider mount "advantage" compared to Canon is that important. It really depends how well the new lenses are designed overall, and how quickly and smoothly they roll them out... Both the Nikon and Canon mounts are going to offer the possibility for slightly better image quality, both better resolution and less vignetting, but I think these gains might be more important or noticeable for short lenses than for telephoto.

It's fun to discuss all the latest greatest cameras and lenses but in the end, I keep coming back to this truth for me personally anyway: Cameras are tools. My existing tools are already incredibly capable. What I need in order to get more great images and more fulfillment from my hobby is not to "upgrade" my tools, but simply to get out more often, get more practice, more lucky opportunities. Plus I still have a lot to learn on the post-processing side.

Dave
Dave, I'd agree with what you've said:
1. FF fun and APS-C equivalence starts at ~45MP FF onwards. Nikon, and Sony are there, Canon I would expect to follow suit. Who knows what Panasonic is really up to. I think in the near future, we will see ~75MP to 100MP FF Mirrorless offerings ..... granted, these are more bird photography incidental, but they will work, and well - if as you say, rather expensively ..... :cat:
2. I agree with both Thom (there's more to be gained by using the UI you are familiar with, and the ergonomics you prefer, than there is between the minute differences in performance between the brand's offerings) , and also in concert with what you have said - practice using what you have got, and practice your techniques for getting on, and tracking a bird ..... :t:

The incremental advantages of the Nikon Z mount will show up in ultra-fast lens designs, and as you say - more at the wideangle end. Nikon has already officially flagged this.

Another key to these various system's usability will be the lens selections (particularly lightweight fast supertelephotos for birding) - as it has often been, and in this regard Nikon had better crack on ! :eat:



Chosun :gh:
 
Last edited:
I would be happy if Nikon would allow me, via and adaptor, to use Canon lenses on it's mount. I've always thought Canon had the lenses many people wanted and that was on of their greatest strengths. I remember some time ago feeling that if I could have adapted my ( then considerable number of ) Canon lenses, I'd jump to Nikon in a minute. In the end I did jump, but to Fuji.
 
I would be happy if Nikon would allow me, via and adaptor, to use Canon lenses on it's mount. I've always thought Canon had the lenses many people wanted and that was on of their greatest strengths. I remember some time ago feeling that if I could have adapted my ( then considerable number of ) Canon lenses, I'd jump to Nikon in a minute. In the end I did jump, but to Fuji.
Well, if it's good enough for Sony ......... :cat:
I think down the track this will be a possibility - but only when some enterprising fourth party unofficially hacks the interface /communications protocols and provides a fully functional AF adapter. If the mount adapter could be combined with a 1.4xTC (or even 2x) then effectively there's not too much additional wasted length and weight.

I could see prime candidates for this being the lightweight:
600 f4 L MkIII
600 f4 DO
400 f4 DO II
400 f2.8 L MkIII
300 f2.8 L MkIII



Chosun :gh:
 
Last edited:
Well, if it's good enough for Sony ......... :cat:
I think down the track this will be a possibility - but only when some enterprising fourth party unofficially hacks the interface /communications protocols and provides a fully functional AF adapter. If the mount adapter could be combined with a 1.4xTC (or even 2x) then effectively there's not too much additional wasted length and weight.

I could see prime candidates for this being the lightweight:
600 f4 L MkIII
600 f4 DO
400 f4 DO II
400 f2.8 L MkIII
300 f2.8 L MkIII



Chosun :gh:

Hmmm.... If I could afford any one of those lenses, then I think I could probably also afford to just buy the best native Canon body available to pair with it. Adapters (and teleconverters) are a risky nuisance to one degree or another, especially crossing brands... yuck. Just my 2 cents tho'...
Dave
 
Hmmm.... If I could afford any one of those lenses, then I think I could probably also afford to just buy the best native Canon body available to pair with it. Adapters (and teleconverters) are a risky nuisance to one degree or another, especially crossing brands... yuck. Just my 2 cents tho'...
Dave
Yep, you have a point .... to a point :)

The native body would be a Canon EF mount DSLR of your choice.
Who knows what Canon has in the mirrorless pipeline that they would supply an official adapter for (hopefully one that works 100% flawlessly).

We know that Nikon has a Z9 in the works - an AF monster to compete with the Sony a9 (most likely a9m2 by the time it hits). They have also hinted at a high res Z8 of around ~70-80MP (likely as a pair with the D850 DSLR replacement). So both of those will be top of the FF mirrorless heap and of a higher performance than we are seeing with this initial Z7 release.

It was to those that I was thinking you would want to adapt the superb Canon glass. Obviously the functionality would have to be perfect - beyond what we have seen in adapter world to date. I said this would have to be provided by a "fourth" party, as neither CaNikon would do it (nor sanction it - which means I doubt those third parties like Sigma, Tamron, or Tokina, who may receive some guidance or nudge nudge wink wink support in developing their mirrorless R and Z mount lenses to suit, would tackle it).

Obviously that is superb (and expensive!) Canon glass that I have listed. So any Canon EF mount to mirrorless Nikon Z mount adapter (combination TC/adapter) would have to offer 100% flawless functionality, IQ, and AF accuracy. Nikon m-a-y have new lightweight versions of their big guns (400/f2.8, 500/f4, and 600/f4) out by then - but I'd expect they'd be in the DSLR F mount (which would mean using their FTZ adapter - maybe in a 2nd high performance iteration by then). Their 300/2.8 is already seriously lagging a generation behind as it is (weight-wise). 800/f5.6 would have to come in for the further lightweight treatment attention at some stage too ......

Who bl**dy-well knows when Nikon will get around to offering super lightweight f4 PF 400 and 600 lenses ..... It's likely that the lens march Canon has held on them will continue at the long end for a while yet. The pressure is on though - currently they are about a kilo overweight for each of them (assuming that we will see Canon MkIII's in 500/f4 and 300/f2.8 announced in the near future to follow suit with recent announcements for the 400/f2.8 and 600/f4). Nikon had better be spinning the wheels like ducks paddling underwater!

It is also likely that Nikon will maintain their DR march on Canon sensor-wise ..... so I can see where the initial demand that Willie45 was talking about would come from. My point was that the demand would be there, and it's theoretically possible, and besides, a similar beast (though perhaps not up to the quality levels I was thinking of) already exists for adapting Canon EF lenses to Sony FE mirrorless .......

An EF2Z adapter would be a significant investment (and likely nice little earner) for someone though :t: ..... and how cool would it be for us! :cool:
:D




Chosun :gh:
 
Ok, I was being pessimistic. I agree it would be great if someone produces an EF2Z adapter with 100% functionality. In general I tend to be a little pessimistic when it comes to what will happen in the future (especially with Nikon) and you're a bit more optimistic... I think occasionally you veer toward the realm of 'fanciful'... but hey, what do I know? And I enjoy your enthusiasm!

I think we agree that probably for quite a while, if people want full AF functionality, they will be forced to use mirrorless adapters limited to Nikon-to-Nikon and Canon-to-Canon, and this is even more true for super telephotos because it may be a long wait for native versions of those big lenses.

In the near term, I am most interested to see how those first shorter S lenses perform in real use, and whether they live up to the promise of those MTF charts, which might be theoretical.

Dave
 
Ok, I was being pessimistic. I agree it would be great if someone produces an EF2Z adapter with 100% functionality. In general I tend to be a little pessimistic when it comes to what will happen in the future (especially with Nikon) and you're a bit more optimistic... I think occasionally you veer toward the realm of 'fanciful'... but hey, what do I know? And I enjoy your enthusiasm!

I think we agree that probably for quite a while, if people want full AF functionality, they will be forced to use mirrorless adapters limited to Nikon-to-Nikon and Canon-to-Canon, and this is even more true for super telephotos because it may be a long wait for native versions of those big lenses.

In the near term, I am most interested to see how those first shorter S lenses perform in real use, and whether they live up to the promise of those MTF charts, which might be theoretical.

Dave
LOL :-O ..... I would prefer 'visionary' rather than 'fanciful' :) - I've lived and worked ~10 years or more into the future while juggling today for ages now, and after all you're just being a realist - so all good :) :-O

The perfect EF2Z adaptor while possible (and I would say desirable) in theory, would take some big corporate kahunas to bring into reality .... Metabones, a maverick start up, crowd funded enthusiasts, private equity, or lotto winners, etc ...... who knows ? :cat:

I think you will be safe with the S line lenses in real use. The Z mount has fantastic design physics advantages. The Canon R is similar, but it is now the Sony FE that seems more constrained and compromised by its dimensions going forward - despite their native lens catalogue quantity lead.

I think if I was Nikon and Canon, I'd be sitting down with the third party lens makers and opening up the new mirrorless lens mount and communication protocols and getting them to design and take full advantage of the reduced size and increased performance advantages offered by the R and Z mounts by fairly tightly framed collaborative agreements. This is something that Sony's mount design ultimately couldn't quite match - particularly at the shorter and faster focal lengths (they'd always need an extra lens pair, weight, length, and cost, for comparable performance). The only snag in that neat strategic encirclement would be that Sony's financial and shareholding tentacles extend some way into Tamron - so they'd be more unwilling to bite the hand that partially feeds it.

If the third parties design for R/Z there will be weight, size, cost advantages over Sony - who will then be somewhat locked out of future lens developments and upgrades, unless they fund those solo, which would always mean higher prices for them alone. It could mean that Sony is eventually forced to change its FF mirrorless mount dimensions and specifications with a new bigger mount more in line with the R, and Z mounts ...... keep your eyes peeled folks! And be prepared. I'd certainly carefully consider Sony investment decisions going forward. They are going to be forced to WOW us body performance wise --- just to stand still ...... that may suit some buyers in the short term ......

If however, the third parties design for the lowest common denominator (Sony with its relatively narrower longer throated lens mount design), then the Canon R and Nikon Z mount lenses will just be compromised Sony ones with empty tube extensions built in to the lens bodies at the mount end and importantly more compromised IQ than what would be otherwise possible. Less than ideal. The individual CaNikon native lenses would then always be that bit more superior (and expensive - read profitable, no doubt)

If I was Nikon I'd also be onto the blower (or golf course as they may prefer :) to Panasonic and getting them to use the Z mount in their new FF for very reasonable 'mates rates' - that would further help put the competitive blow torch on Canon, but more particularly Sony.

All said the FF strategic landscape is relatively straight forward - it's in the DX arena where the road map spaghetti really gets messy ......



Chosun :gh:
 
The DX conundrum .....

"Oh Mr Hart ...... What a mess!"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8qb4n8yc2so

A DX mess indeed.
While the sensor resolution size is pretty straight forward - logically a proportionally scaled multiple of the hi res FF sensors, it's the question of mount size, flange focal distance, compatibility, adaptability, legacy, and future development pathways, lens size parameters and limitations, performance, body size /ergonomics and market positioning that is a huge dilemma in the mirrorless arena.

It's late so I'll get into the analysis down the track, suffice to say that in the immediate future, an upgraded DSLR D500 will do me (be it called what may - D500S, D510, D550, D555 - whatever the name) ..... oh, and the small matter of a matching PF 600/f4 !!

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whats-up-with-dx.html
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/i-see-dead-mounts.html

Give us your thoughts, wishes etc regarding DX - how would you design the market offering and technical specification going forward ........ and why ?




Chosun :gh:
 
More Nikon Z7 Camera Reviews

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/09/19/more-nikon-z7-camera-reviews.aspx/

Also, following the link, some nice technical testing of the sensor and processing here: https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/cameras/mirrorless/nikon-z7-camera-review/
It seems that low ISO DR is very nice, but I think Nikon shooters would have hoped for 'clearly' better than competitor's AF (some are ranking Sony's a7R III as ahead). Lenses used were the native Z mount S line 35 f1.8, and 24-70 f4. Will this be subject of a firmware update down the track or saved for the next iteration - who knows?



Chosun :gh:
 
I can't see how these mirrorless offerings are going to help bird Photography that much.
IBIS is not as effective on the long lenses. The 500PF is more significant for us.
 
I can't see how these mirrorless offerings are going to help bird Photography that much.
IBIS is not as effective on the long lenses. The 500PF is more significant for us.

Yes, I agree for the most part. Both Z7 and Z6 are full frame. Only the Z7 operating in crop mode has the resolution desired for bird photography, and by all accounts, its C-AF & tracking is still inferior to the D500/D850, making the DSLR’s still the better choice for action.

However I’m glad Nikon is finally putting out a serious mirrorless system because mirrorless cameras in general have a few advantages over DSLR’s that can help with bird photography. The mirrorless features I most appreciate are (a) a totally silent and vibrationless shutter and (b) a really good EVF that allows among other things the ability to zoom in on your subject and dial in the focus super precisely with focus peaking.

I think the ideal offering for bird photography would be the rumored/speculated “Z5”... a DX sensor “mirrorless D500” with C-AF and tracking that works very well, and someday native super telephoto lenses to eliminate the need for an adapter. However I think it could be a long wait for that... Nobody really knows what Nikon will do when it comes to DX cameras... If I were to guess, I’d say the most likely first DX mirrorless body will be a much more consumer oriented “Z3” or something, maybe introduced along with a more affordable line of lenses (not as good as the new premium “S” lenses for the Z6/Z7). I expect Nikon will probably keep promoting their DSLR’s for sports/wildlife.

It would not surprise me if Nikon’s competitors are first to offer a “mirrorless D500” (with a great super telephoto lens to match it). I’m thinking Canon, Fuji (APS-C) or Olympus/Panasonic (micro-4/3).

Dave
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 2 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top