Phyllosc, Laos (1 Viewer)

Photographed by a friend of mine in January. I have my opinion but my knowledge of Phylloscopus from south-east Asia is a bit too theorical to be reliable, beside I see conflicting evidences so I want to double-check.
Thanks in advance for any help.

I'd say Eastern Crowned Warbler: pale yellow UT coverts, all orange lower mandible, small double wingbars

RafaelMatias said:

I'd say Eastern Crowned Warbler: pale yellow UT coverts, all orange lower mandible, small double wingbars

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Agreed

I owe you guys an apology, I have further pics but posted only one image in the OP as it is the best one.
Some images show the bird with its head slightly tilted away. I guess the coronal stripe of ECW should be visible on these, at least partly, and I see none.

Tib78 said:

Some images show the bird with its head slightly tilted away. I guess the coronal stripe of ECW should be visible on these, at least partly, and I see none.

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Indeed! :smoke: Though sometimes difficult to see there should be something there, especially as the palest bit is at the rear. It also lacks any definition on the lateral crown stripes.
Has to be a worn Two-barred with unusually lemony undertail coverts.

rockfowl said:

Though sometimes difficult to see there should be something there, especially as the palest bit is at the rear.
Has to be a worn Two-barred with unusually lemony undertail coverts.

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The new photos change things indeed. In any case here's 2 examples of ECW where the crown stripe is not readily visible:
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=1802&Bird_Image_ID=80852
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=1802&Bird_Image_ID=99562
Agree the lateral crown stripes would be more contrasting as well as the eye-stripe. Not commenting on TBW as I'm not experienced with that taxon (but it would be one of the "two" other possibilities, the other one being the Arctic Warbler complex).

RafaelMatias said:

The new photos change things indeed. In any case here's 2 examples of ECW where the crown stripe is not readily visible:
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=1802&Bird_Image_ID=80852
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=1802&Bird_Image_ID=99562
Agree the lateral crown stripes would be more contrasting as well as the eye-stripe. Not commenting on TBW as I'm not experienced with that taxon (but it would be one of the "two" other possibilities, the other one being the Arctic Warbler complex).

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Arctic should always be considered and I've seen TWB and Arctic's confused before but the lack of any olive on the breast sides, flanks or thighs, generally clean underparts, supercilium, no dark tip to the lower mandible suggests it's not.
Two-barred can look rather beasty aka ECW such as this one from James - http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_Image_ID=39616&Bird_ID=1829&Bird_Family_ID=&Location=

rockfowl said:

Arctic should always be considered and I've seen TWB and Arctic's confused before but the lack of any olive on the breast sides, flanks or thighs, generally clean underparts, supercilium, no dark tip to the lower mandible suggests it's not.
Two-barred can look rather beasty aka ECW such as this one from James - http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_Image_ID=39616&Bird_ID=1829&Bird_Family_ID=&Location=

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Sorry, I wasn't suggesting it was an Arctic at this stage. Just as an initial contender in a first stage when confronted with an "elongated" Phyllosc with pale wing bars and no apparent pale rump. The features you mention would make it very difficult to fit. It was me who wasn't clear.
It's funny that I noticed that photo and almost posted it as well! o

Thanks for you help. I must say that when I first saw the images, I initially thought it was an «Arctic warbler», but the longish P1 made me change to plumbeitarsus. However, I remember reading somewhere that some Arctic may show a P1 longer than the PCs (though only by 1 mm). My friend also says it was rather slow moving for a Phyllosc, unlike the rather hyperactive members of the greenish complex. I find the ear-coverts rather extensively mottled too, hence my hesitation...

My initial reaction was Arctic, but looking again I agree that Two-barred/Greenish could fit.
But can anyone clarify why this is plumbeitarsus and not obscuratus? I am never clear about which features are actually useful for separating these two taxa.

I'm very hesitant to post on a thread where all the other contibutors are so distinguished, and I stress I am not suggesting or challenging any ID. But given that two or three of these distinguished contributors went at first for Eastern Crowned Warbler, I would like to give a couple of observations just 'as is'.

Where I live in central Japan (near Osaka), in my local spot, we get Arctic (Kamchatka only as far as I can discover, fairly common on transit), Eastern Crowned (occasionalon transit) and Sakhalin Leaf (once, I think). I would like to stress 'my local spot' which is only a couple of kilometres around. Eastern Crowned can be found reliably in other nearby locations, and Sakhalin Leaf is not especially rare either. By which I mean to say, there aren't many possible alternatives for confusion.

My experience of ECW is that it moves higher up generally than Kamchatka Leaf, and is therefore more difficult to get a good ID photo of.

When I looked at the photo Tib first posted (and also the later ones), one thing that stood out was that the supercilium in front of the eye seemed to be thicker than that behind the eye, whereas ECW is supposed to have a super which narrows in front of the eye. This is mentioned in the books, and has been my experience also, and I think can be seen in the photos I attach, especially the two of the first bird.

The colouration of ECW depends on season and on the light to quite an extent, it seems to me. In the two photos I have attached of a bird I saw last week in a dark area, you can see that the head pattern is very contrasty and unmistakeable. Also notice that the overall greyish head colouration is very distinct from the greenish back.

But in the other photos of an autumn bird (all three same bird), the crown stripe is difficult to see. And the photos showing the underbill were taken a couple of seconds apart. One shows the extremely yellow underbill which is distinctive of ECW, but the second shows that if the angle of the light changes, there is a darker patch which can appear black.

To repeat, I simply offer these as observations.

It’s also worth pointing out that ECW does not winter in Lao PDR (as far as I’m aware).

I agree it looks like TBW with rather bright undertail coverts.

johnallcock said:

My initial reaction was Arctic, but looking again I agree that Two-barred/Greenish could fit.
But can anyone clarify why this is plumbeitarsus and not obscuratus? I am never clear about which features are actually useful for separating these two taxa.

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According to Ticehurst (and Williamson) obscuratus has darker, greener upper parts with a darker crown, 2 yellowish wing-bars, the lower (greater covert) usually broader than plumbeitarsus and with yellower underparts. This desribes a bird in fresh plumage which does not apply here as the OP bird is rather heavily worn.

I've seen images of presumed obscuratus from E.Qinghai in early Aug (fresh) and they accord well with this description but I no longer have access to the images to share.

Looking at the OP the rather strong bill with an unmarked lower mandible and leg colour marginally favour TBW IMO. The mottled ear coverts are not a problem.

Grahame