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A Ring to Far (1 Viewer)

SueO said:
I think the rings are obscene and the Cuckoos and Ospreys flying around with satellite backpacks strapped to them are victims of animal cruelty. Just my opinion.
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What really is obscene are the 90% to 95% declines in numbers being experienced by formerly quite common birds, but for which we have little idea of the cause. <sarc>Once these species have gone extinct, there will be no further cause for your concern about animal cruelty - in their case at least.</sarc>
P.s. If you want to see real animal cruelty, have a look on YouTube at some of the covertly-taken videos from slaughter houses - especially those specialising in religious ritual procedures.
 
Update on the Knot, It was ringed at Schiermonnikoog in Holland a small offshore Island in September 2011. The Dutch ringing project has been running for 12years now and they have ringed 8800 birds hence the large number of Rings on this Knot. they are still seeing birds they ringed 12years ago so birds can survive a long time with many rings.
One wonders if the project runs another 12 years how many rings will be on the last bird Ringed.
 
Trystan said:
@James - Thanks James, yes, I can see that my scenario was flawed.

@Alf - I missed your post yesterday about the bird not being bothered. I think thats the crux of the debate really, how do you know it's not bothered? I /et irritated by my wedding ring.

Also@Alf - Thanks for the sparrow information, I still think that the problems with sparrow decline have been summed up in the sparrowhawk thread, although not by the OP! It's just not that it can be proved scientifically, at least by those forwarding the theories/observations here.
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If you are interested in house sparrow decline you might like to read this: http://www.katevincent.org If you haven't already seen it.

Kate spent many, many hours at my house studying my sparrow colony over several years.
She was absolutely dedicated - shinning up my bathroom door to get into the loft space to try and see into the nests with a scope, doing insect sweeps of the vegetatation to see what they had available, and sitting out in her car one day in amazing heat for 6 hours watching them with binocs to see what they were bringing to the nest.

Tina
 
In the East Asian-Australasian Flyway leg flags have become the norm for the larger species of shorebird. Are these being used in the Atlantic flyways?
 
Dimitris said:
In the East Asian-Australasian Flyway leg flags have become the norm for the larger species of shorebird. Are these being used in the Atlantic flyways?
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Leg flags are being used sometimes including engraved flags but these have their limitations. The ink in the code fades and even when new they can't be read from as far away as colour rings.

Just to add to the complexities of the calculations going on - this bird has a flag too. 4 colour rings and a flag (not so easy to see at this angle but above the rings on the right tarsus by the looks of it). The flag can be in 8 different positions (left tibia, right tibia, above colour bands, between colour bands etc. etc.) and can change colour. This gives huge numbers of combinations - well beyond my mathamatical capabilities.

There should be no need to add extra rings when the combinations run out and this project has been using the same number of rings since the start. All good colour ringing projects do this. As has been mentioned before, colour rings come off occasionally and if a bird with 4 rings looses one then the combination could match that of a bird which was only ever given 3 so you loose the data from that point onwards of those 2 birds.
If the combinations run out - then different colours need to be used or you reuse combinations from birds which are known to have died.
 
Mícheál said:
I was about to mount a defence before I looked again & saw the antenna.....

Mícheál
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Thanks, I hadn't seen it...

Worst thing with these rings, is when you signal a bird, even endangered species, but nobody can or cares to answer. Or maybe in 5 years?
 
I hadn't noticed the antenna either. Poor little thing is really carrying a bunch of stuff. Maybe some blinking lights like airplanes have (but the bird blinkers would run on solar) could be glued onto his belly--that way it could be identified at night. Someone could probably get a grant for that.
 
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A conglomeration of rings like this are clearly aesthetically displeasing, but is there any convincing evidence, beyond anthropomorphic conjecture, that they are actually harmful to the birds that carry them? If there is I've not seen it. Rationally those who object to birds carrying rings should welcome the use of more sophisticated satellite tracking since far fewer birds need to be tracked to gain significantly greater and more detailed information.

Let's make no mistake that a sentimental 'poor little birdy' approach poses a significantly greater threat to bird populations than any number of rings or antennae. Knowledge is power and we are in desperate need of knowledge to help us to protect birds many of which are in desperate decline.
 
John Cantelo said:
A conglomeration of rings like this are clearly aesthetically displeasing, but is there any convincing evidence, beyond anthropomorphic conjecture, that they are actually harmful to the birds that carry them? If there is I've not seen it. Rationally those who object to birds carrying rings should welcome the use of more sophisticated satellite tracking since far fewer birds need to be tracked to gain significantly greater and more detailed information.

Let's make no mistake that a sentimental 'poor little birdy' approach poses a significantly greater threat to bird populations than any number of rings or antennae. Knowledge is power and we are in desperate need of knowledge to help us to protect birds many of which are in desperate decline.
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Well, John, I believe this is clearly more than a case for 'poor little birdy' sentimentality. I think any person with even an ounce of empathy for any living creature who sees this bird and won't admit that this is over-the-top is not being honest or has an agenda beyond simple curiosity. I really get tired of hearing that I don't care about birds because I disapprove of the current data collection methods and what looks to me to be a blatant disregard for the bird. Anyone who questions the status quo is automatically an 'irrational person who practices anthropomorphic conjecture'. How do all the expert humans know that all these trappings are not harmful to the bird? Because everybody who thinks it's ok says so? I do not believe for a second that none of these birds has suffered some near miss or even death due to this practice. I wonder if 'accidents' are fully disclosed. Birds are vulnerable to many things and they often will not allow stress or weakness to show because it could be the end of them. They can put on a good show until the end. I say this because I have had birds and cared for injured birds. I fully believe they feel stress and can be bothered by very simple things.
Maybe the 'poor birdy' people are not completely out of line. Perhaps people who have the opinion that the birds don't mind and it doesn't do any harm are a little out of line. Maybe they can't see it does harm because they are not looking very hard. You are right though, I hate to see images like this and not just because I find them "aesthetically displeasing". Make no mistake that mankind has been mistaken before when they have forced their current belief system on mother nature for her own good. There are many ways to gain knowledge. I will say no more on this for a few reasons but most of all because this is the Ringing and Banding Forum and my opinion is of no consequence.
Sue
 
SueO, what you "fully believe" is not relevant and does not have any influence on what other people do when ringing birds. What matters is whether you can demonstrate any negative effects that would undermine the use of this many rings, and that means the rings substantially influence the bird's behaviour or survival to the point where the data collected is not meaningful (because the bird isn't behaving naturally). That is the bottom line, anything else is just 'he says, she says' and should quite rightly have no influence on what anybody else does. Ornithology and ringing is a science, not a sentimental journey.

The 'poor birdy' people seem to be ones with the "belief system" you mention, in that they just express their feeling about a scientific issue without engaging with any actual science. They just have a 'feeling', not any evidence. We moved on from that kind of logic in the Middle Ages, and I for one am glad that we have an evidence-based approach to most things, including bird ringing.

As an example of how well this works in practical terms of bird welfare and ethics, you may be interested to know that the BTO recently cancelled plans to attach data loggers to House Martins that would answer one of the biggest questions in European migration studies (where they go in winter) after evidence from another study indicated low return rates. That is the principle in action, on a firm ethical basis, balancing the welfare of the subject with the need for data collection. Give me that over a 'gut reaction' any day.

And it doesn't look like an antenna to me. Looks like a feather.
 
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SueO said:
I think any person with even an ounce of empathy for any living creature who sees this bird and won't admit that this is over-the-top is not being honest or has an agenda beyond simple curiosity
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With a forecast loss of 40% of bird species this century, of course there is an agenda. That agenda is gathering every possible ounce of information about every 'do-able' species that we can, before these, too, go the way of the Eskimo Curlew - now officially extinct as of a month ago :C

Your somewhat misplaced sentiments would be more laudable if you were to turn it toward the slaughter of migrant birds in the Middle East, where they are trapped (the lucky ones are shot dead) by the millions, yes, millions - then sold alive with their wings broken, to be cooked at home as titbits.
 
I have posted an observation of a red listed bird with rings without getting any answer, so I have some doubts when people explain that "we have to do this before it's too late".

Most endangered birds suffer from habitat losses, which are caused by growing human population and development, and who wants to go against that!

Be honest, if you want to protect birds, you'd have to first protect their habitat and sources of food! But you will have to face angry people who want to use the land for agriculture or real estate projects.

So yes, it's easier to do some ringing. Good for our curiosity, but for the birds...?
 
S_Man said:
I have posted an observation of a red listed bird with rings without getting any answer, so I have some doubts when people explain that "we have to do this before it's too late".

Most endangered birds suffer from habitat losses, which are caused by growing human population and development, and who wants to go against that!

Be honest, if you want to protect birds, you'd have to first protect their habitat and sources of food! But you will have to face angry people who want to use the land for agriculture or real estate projects.

So yes, it's easier to do some ringing. Good for our curiosity, but for the birds...?
Click to expand...

That's the difference between basic and applied research. Basic research like ringing provides information to those who do applied conservation. If we know the age structure/migration patterns of birds we can then present that information to the relevant people.
 
As it is already known that the addition of coloured leg rings effect the breeding sucess of some species, I wonder if the researchers have noted this bird on the breeding ground, and how sucessful it has been.

Malky
 
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