• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Low-light Performance (1 Viewer)

Ben88

Ben88

Well-known member
Hi,

I've been taking a lot of photos in tropical forests (i.e. Taman Negara), and my current setup doesn't do very well in the dark understory. I have a Canon Rebel T2i and a Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM lens. What upgrade (of the camera and/or lens) would help the most with low-light performance? I'd also like a little more reach, but that's a secondary priority. My budget is around $2000, depending on how much improvement I would get.

Thanks,
Ben
 
A 60D (or used 7D) with a 300f4 (plus Kenko 1.4X teleconverter for when it isn't so dark) could be had for around $2000.
 
It may help respondents if you give some more details. [Rebel T2i is known as the 550d in other markets].

What ISO are you typically shooting at, Jpeg/RAW, in camera NR (low-standard-strong) etc?

RAW images processed for noise outside the camera will make the most of the captured image, so may be worth trying if you're not already doing so.

The 550d is a decent high ISO performer. The 300 f4L would probably be where I'd look first for a significant improvement, assuming you can live with a prime lense?
 
The biggest improvement for noise I have noticed is when we upgraded from our 650D to a 6D (ff). Though without the crop factor your focal length will be effectively shorter, so you'll lose reach. However, I quick test between the two as the 650D remains a backup, I found we could shoot at 1600ISO on the 6D which compared to the 650D at about 400ISO - so you'll be able to push it up a LOT. That will leave a big hole in your budget for a lens though, the 300f4 as suggested will allow for extra light with the wider aperture and will produce sharper pictures.

Though I've never seen or tried one, I believe the 70D is out now, this should handle noise better than a 550D and leave you with money left for a decent lens.
 
Ben88 said:
I've been taking a lot of photos in tropical forests (i.e. Taman Negara), and my current setup doesn't do very well in the dark understory. I have a Canon Rebel T2i and a Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM lens. What upgrade (of the camera and/or lens) would help the most with low-light performance? I'd also like a little more reach, but that's a secondary priority. My budget is around $2000, depending on how much improvement I would get.
Click to expand...

Hi Ben,

In case you are unaware, the site DxOMark has a close to complete ranking of digital camera sensors by low light ability. You can filter it by brand, sensor size, and price:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings/(type)/usecase_sports

It suggests full frame sensors will clearly provide the most significant improvement from your current setup in terms of low light ability. Though you could make some more modest improvements through some of the upgrades suggested above. I think the only other way to get a major improvement is to go to the flash route, which obviously has other disadvantages.

Best,
Jim
 
Thanks for the advice! It looks like upgrading to the 6d is the way to go, but I'm concerned about losing reach with a full frame sensor. I almost always use 300 on my 70-300 lens. Will the 6d perform noticeably worse than the Rebel T2i/550d in better light conditions where I'd shoot at ISO <= 800 with the 550d? From what I understand, it doesn't matter much at higher ISOs as I could just crop the images to get something comparable (or better).

I shoot in RAW, and on my trip to peninsular Malaysia I often had to set the ISO at 3200 or 6400 to get the shutter speed over 1/100.
 
Hello Ben,

go straight forward to a full frame body. Best choice is 6D. You can get good results up to 3200 ISO and even more, especially if you post process.

No crop sensor (even 70D , 7D Mark II) will be able to such results. The image quality and noise performance is huge.

And because for everyone the comparison is objective, i will tell you that with my ex-7D i was never shooting above ISO 800 because the noise was too much for me, even at 400 when i cropped close to 100% the noise was very apparent.

Later with 1D Mark IV there was a big improvement, i could shoot at 1600 ISO with good to very good results. ISO 3200 was the limits for my taste, i used it in extreme conditions but the noise was very obvious.
5D Mark II could give me acceptable to good results to ISO 3200, it is better than 1D IV for sure.
But with 6D i shoot up to 3200 with very good results, in some extreme condinions when i need the moment i can go to 6400.

But if you dare to shoot at 3200-6400 with a 550D! you can dare at 25600 and more with the 6D!

As far as for a lens, the 300 f/4L is the best option. Excellent lens and with the 1,4x III Extender in the future you can get more reach (though at 5.6 max aperture) with great results.

Hope you can get the best results,

George
 
Forest birding is so,so difficult that I tend to not bother and go elsewhere instead! When I do and in dark conditions I use auto ISO and set manual limits for both ISO and shutter speed at a level with which I'm comfortable of getting some kind of reasonable result.
With a limited budget you can't compete with top of the range bodies and lenses in terms of image quality but if you are happy with a reasonable record shot in most instances that's fine. Otherwise I wouldn't try as you can't compete.
It's a bit of a negative attitude but there is no point in thinking there's an easy answer. Now and again you might get the opportunity of something sat out in bright sunlight and then what you have will be fine although you are short of reach with a maximum 300mm lens too.
I was reading and article about using graphine sensors recently, not that I am very technically minded, and when they reach the manufacturers ISO 320,000 will be the norm.Won't be long by all accounts, then you can shoot in the dark !
 
The catch here is that a full frame sensor will give better high ISO performance on one hand, on the other hand one needs to crop into the image to get a comparable subject to frame ratio.
There goes a lot of the ISO advantage. By having to crop in lack of detail starts to show and results get close and closer to high ISO crop images with more aggressive noise eduction (also leads to loss of image detail)/
As long as you can get a lot of the frame filled with the subject FF is superior at high ISO, but a 300mm lens gives 300mm lens frame filling.....

In your situation I would look into investing on the lens side (f2.8, also beneficial for AF performance at low light, even when shooting with F<2.8) and explore the option of using a flash, before changing to a full frame body with your current lens (if this one is even compatible with FF). A 2nd hand recent model (with OS) Sigma 120-300 2.8 may be within or close to your budget, and it will work on future, even better performing and very likely also cheaper FF bodies ......

Ulli
 
The more I think about this decision, the more I increase my budget. I think I've decided on getting a 5d3, 300 f4 lens, and 1.4x teleconverter (to use in good light conditions). I thought about getting the 6d for a while, but I realized that I would eventually want to upgrade to the 5d3 so I might as well spend a bit more to get it now.

Is this the right way to go? Is there a better setup for tropical bird photography for around $5000? I don't think I can spend any more than that.
 
Just my .02...

I was originally in the same conundrum...5D3 vs 6D

Having owned a 5D2 before the one thing that always got me was low light focus and high ISO handling. After a painful decision i sold the 5D2 with the full intention on picking up a 6D.

After bouncing back and forth for ages on the specs of each camera i realized i don't need a 61 point AF system (i only use the center point), but could use a camera with a -3 EV center point sensitivity and something that could shoot at ISO 12,800 without flinching...my decision was made easy.

Obviously your needs may vary...but from what i gather from your OP this could work good for you.

Another option if the opportunity is available is to try renting both bodies to see which meets your needs best. It's a lot of cash to throw out there and no one likes having buyers remorse.
 
If you are going to up your budget, it might be worth giving serious consideration to buying a 300mm f2.8 lens, and compromising on the camera body for the time being. A top quality lens will last forever, and its resale value will hold up. On the other hand, camera bodies have a short product life cycle, and lose value quickly.
 
Ben88 said:
The more I think about this decision, the more I increase my budget. I think I've decided on getting a 5d3, 300 f4 lens, and 1.4x teleconverter (to use in good light conditions). I thought about getting the 6d for a while, but I realized that I would eventually want to upgrade to the 5d3 so I might as well spend a bit more to get it now.

Is this the right way to go? Is there a better setup for tropical bird photography for around $5000? I don't think I can spend any more than that.
Click to expand...
For what you want I would have though a FF Camera is the way to go.
I thought long and hard between the 6D and 5D3 recently and in the end went for the 5D3 because the AF is so much better for birds/action photography, I have also found it a superb Camera for hand held macro stuff as you can get much better shutter speeds by shooting at ISO 3200 or even higher with a bit of NR. If I was just doing still life /landscape type stuff then I am sure the 6D would have been fine.
have been shooting with a 7D for almost 4 years now and loved it but the 5D3 is in another league IMHO. Apart from the obvious high ISO noise levels gains (easily 2 stops and maybe a bit more) the 5D3 gives a far better overall IQ. You should also remember that the 5D3 af's up to f8 on the centre point so you could shoot your 300/4 with a 2x tc and still get auto focus although I am not sure of the IQ hit you would take.
 
Last edited:
You're getting some good advice here, but it's still a hard decision. Have you considered used equipment? If you can find a nice 5D3 for about $2500 and a clean used 300mm f/2.8 for about $3500 (I've just checked FredMiranda for these prices), that's not far over your highest budget, and you would get all the benefits listed in these posts. It's always hard to spend the money, but sometimes it's cheaper in the end than repeatedly spending less and ending up with less, that eventually adds up to the cost (or more) of doing it right the first time. You have a specific goal, and I would think the cost of travel would best be utilized by getting the photos you want/need, so having the right equipment to get those worthwhile shots is important, whatever the cost. Selling what you have to make up some of the difference will ease the pain, and you will be infinitely more pleased with your results.
 
Last edited:
I have a 300m f4 + 1.4c II and a 5d mark 3. I used to have a 60D and the quality of the images I get now can't be compared with, even when cropped. With the 60D I was never satisfied with the resuts when using a teleconverter. With the 5D the teleonverter never leaves the lenses. Very sharp now!

The other day I took a photo of a Robin that was under some thick trees, iso 5000 f/5.6 1/160(I think) and I was amazed with the result(even when cropped). I could never have that with a crop sensor
 
Warning! This thread is more than 11 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

M
Sigma 150-600 Lens Alternatives
Replies
4
Views
1K
mike nesbitt
M
O
Canon EOS 80D always slightly "fuzzy"
Replies
14
Views
2K
nikitasius
N
Oregon John
R7 and RF 100-400 f/5.6-8 IS USM performance in low light?
Replies
5
Views
6K
pdwinter
pdwinter
S
Dusk light performance relative to weight, NL Pure 10x32 vs 10x42
2 3
Replies
45
Views
3K
ReinierB
R
Evan Atkinson
Looking to upgrade
Replies
3
Views
876
Evan Atkinson
Evan Atkinson

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top