Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
More discoveries. NEW: Zeiss Victory SF 32

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Corona virus threat to birding

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 12:08   #701
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 17,975
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMW View Post
Understood. However, if all the known at-risk population is effectively self-isolating, that presumably removes a high proportion of those likely to require intensive care from the equation. I guess the key question is what proportion of the population not considered at risk will require critical care when infected, and how does that compare to capacity.
Part one of that is inestimable.

Current capacity is way below the anticipated need but some firms have repurposed their production sites to make ventilators and there are steps to increase bed space though I doubt the number of ventilators will be on a par with beds.

It's common sense to remove from the equation those, who should they become ill, will probably become VERY ill and save capacity in ICU for the unknowns.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 12:19   #702
opisska
Jan Ebr
 
opisska's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Warszawa
Posts: 1,777
Having functional healthcare surely is better than the opposite, but it's not really the end-all solution. Half of the people who go on artificial ventilation die anyway. It's not like we can, at this moment, reliably save people from this.
__________________
Final life lists:
Birds: world 2168, WP 563, gWP 600, bird photos
Mammals: 257, mammal photos
opisska is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 12:22   #703
Farnboro John
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 14,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMW View Post
Maybe leave the passive aggressive barbs to the experts?
You are surely not saying Owen is not a master of the passive-aggressive barb?

John
Farnboro John is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 12:38   #704
DMW
Registered User
 
DMW's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Jersey
Posts: 2,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farnboro John View Post
You are surely not saying Owen is not a master of the passive-aggressive barb?

John
I can't believe I actually wrote that!
DMW is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 12:45   #705
DMW
Registered User
 
DMW's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Jersey
Posts: 2,013
Clearly I have more influence than I thought! Our Chief Minister just released an open letter with the following warning:

"And if Islanders flout these measures, then the Government will have to consider stricter actions to limit our freedoms, including compulsory self-isolation for people over 65 and people with underlying health conditions – or impose even more draconian restrictions."

I assume "more draconian solutions" involves issuing traffic wardens with handguns or deportation to Guernsey.
DMW is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 13:16   #706
Deb Burhinus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 648
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMW View Post
Understood. However, if all the known at-risk population is effectively self-isolating, that presumably removes a high proportion of those likely to require intensive care from the equation.
This is not really an accurate spin of the situation imo - everyone is at risk of getting the virus and an increasing number of younger people are at risk of requiring intensive care. A 21 year old has just died and afatk, had no other health issues as has a 37yr old British Diplomat ...

The premise upon which you base your idea needs a rethink

“”Early data from China, where the disease originated, suggested the majority of those who died from coronavirus were aged 60 and older or who had serious underlying health conditions.

However, over the past two weeks, there have been more cases of younger people getting the disease.

A report from the United States' Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found 20% of those who had to be in hospital after contracting coronavirus were aged 20-44-years-old and 18% were 45-54-years-old.

Of those admitted to intensive care, 12% were in the younger age bracket while 36% were in the 45-54-year-old range.

"Clinicians who care for adults should be aware that COVID-19 can result in severe disease among persons of all ages, the report, published on 18 March, said.

"Social distancing is recommended for all ages to slow the spread of the virus."


https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...id-19-11963451

I’m afraid younger, fit healthy birders are also going to have to put up with blanket lockdown measures

btw Norfolk WT have announced closure of all their tea rooms, hides and carparks - some reserves are also closed completely eg Weeting but others there’s still access onto the boardwalks eg Cley/Saltmarsh
__________________
___________________________
ORNITHOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF THE MIDDLE EAST
THE CAUCASUS AND CENTRAL ASIA
http://www.osme.org

Last edited by Deb Burhinus : Wednesday 25th March 2020 at 23:21.
Deb Burhinus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 13:23   #707
dantheman
Bah humbug
 
dantheman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 13,036
Blog Entries: 2
Don't forget there are more health issues through the age brackets in the USA - diabetes and other issues to do with being overweight.

Agree there will be potentially tens of thousands in the younger age groups in the UK with as-yet undiscovered underlying health issues.
__________________
stithiansreservoirbirding.blogspot.co.uk/ - last update 10/11/15 - really rather remarkable still!!!
dantheman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 13:27   #708
Stonefaction
Yes!
 
Stonefaction's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Dundee
Posts: 1,775
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Were the pitches Dens & Tannadice or those beside Dundee International Sports Centre?
MJB
No, though I do pass Tannadice & Dens on the first leg of my walk in to work. The ones I stand a chance of seeing birds on (Oystercatchers, gulls and crows so far) are in a public park.
Stonefaction is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 13:45   #709
Deb Burhinus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 648
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman View Post

Agree there will be potentially tens of thousands in the younger age groups in the UK with as-yet undiscovered underlying health issues.
Yes, true, but my point really is that young people are dying even when there’s no underlying health issues and in increasing numbers - I really wouldn’t want people here putting themselves or others at risk because they’ve been lulled into a false sense of security with so much focus on people over the age of 70 or with pre-underlying conditions. We ARE ALL very much at risk albeit, younger, healthy individuals statistically slightly less likely among those hospitalised, to require intensive care if hospitalised - (but only by 2 %if the CDC figures are to be believed - ie 48% of people in intensive care were under the age of 55!)
__________________
___________________________
ORNITHOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF THE MIDDLE EAST
THE CAUCASUS AND CENTRAL ASIA
http://www.osme.org

Last edited by Deb Burhinus : Wednesday 25th March 2020 at 14:24.
Deb Burhinus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 15:50   #710
Jeff hopkins
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 6,812
I really can't believe that people are saying put all the at-risk people in one place. IMO, that's called an old age home. And we know how the virus went through those from an example in Seattle.

So no, not a good idea.
Jeff hopkins is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 16:02   #711
dantheman
Bah humbug
 
dantheman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 13,036
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff hopkins View Post
I really can't believe that people are saying put all the at-risk people in one place. IMO, that's called an old age home. And we know how the virus went through those from an example in Seattle.

So no, not a good idea.
No-one is (at least not me). I don't have time to go into the full policy details and economics ...

Another problem with doing things with the elderly is they wouldn't stand for it <shakes fist and zimmer frame angrily>. And, although for the exact opposite reasons, moving people around may have shades of 1930's Germany in some peoples perception.
__________________
stithiansreservoirbirding.blogspot.co.uk/ - last update 10/11/15 - really rather remarkable still!!!
dantheman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 16:34   #712
Jeff hopkins
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 6,812
I have to admit, there's a part of me that says that if the religious nut-jobs want to have their mega-services and meet in large groups despite government instructions to do otherwise, I say let them. Lock them in their churches, deny them medical help, and see if God saves them. As long as they aren't allowed to be super spreaders, get them out of the gene pool.

Then I take a step back and say just keep them away from me.
Jeff hopkins is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 17:08   #713
tenex
Registered User
 
tenex's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
...so emissions generated by road vehicles and car ownership in the last 20 yrs have decreased? You not ‘getting out into nature away from others’ if crowds of others have the same idea. It’s only ‘safe’ if you don’t call out any emergency services miles to a remote location if you have an accident or breakdown when they could be saving the lives of those who are seriously ill.
Your preaching about evil vehicle emissions is not the point here at all. Getting out into nature in large numbers is perfectly safe if you're all well away from one another, which is easily done, as I observed myself this weekend. Emergencies would be so rare that they would have no measurable effect on the coronavirus outcome. You could wind all this moral agitation down many notches without any meaningful loss, unless you just enjoy it too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
The only ‘denial’ at work here is yours apparently - people are dying, mostly, but not exclusively, the elderly. Your comments give the impression that restrictions in place in the Rocky Mountain NP, is nothing but an inconvenience for you and your desire to go birding. You even seem to be harbouring animosity or some kind of resentment towards those elderly folk who quite rightly want to protect themselves? Are these people under some kind of moral debt to you because you buy your gas in their town?
I'm only pointing out the contradictions and absurdities in the present situation. Fomites (e.g. gas pumps) are not thought to be a major route of transmission for coronavirus, especially with precautions that everyone should be taking already. (The town had already shut down motels etc, and the government has encouraged people to get out into national parks, even waiving fees, as you may not know.) You would do well not to try to guess at my motives; you might not like the sound of what I'm imagining about yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
I might turn to John Locke to answer that one if this were a political seminar ...’liberty’ comes with a proviso don’t you know ...
I don't recall requesting a seminar. If you wish to exercise your right of self-defense, just stay home yourself. And none of this moralizing justifies your remark about why no one else should enjoy getting out into nature, far away from you, if you can't. Care to try again, or will you leave me to my imagination?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
The question is definitely being asked now, can we justify throwing such resouces at people who are nearing the end of their natural lives anyway and in doing so, risking the future prosperity of the generations below them?
Oh, I wish you wouldn't put it that way. It really makes the whole idea of any debate at all look bad, and it's not just the elderly dying anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMW View Post
Something I've been pondering is this: instead of universal lock down, identify every person who is known to be in a vulnerable class. Invite them to self-isolate, and provide as many resources to them as possible (shopping deliveries etc) to keep them safe and sound, but otherwise let everybody else get on with their lives as normal and let the virus run its course.
An eminently logical suggestion. Unfortunately, beyond the obvious elderly etc we don't know who's at greater risk and needs protection. The ICUs are too full of surprises.

Last edited by tenex : Wednesday 25th March 2020 at 17:19.
tenex is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 18:34   #714
Andrew Whitehouse
Professor of Listening
BF Supporter 2020
 
Andrew Whitehouse's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 20,696
https://twitter.com/CllrSabrina/stat...833897473?s=20
__________________
Andrew

Listening to Birds
Andrew Whitehouse is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 18:38   #715
rosbifs
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Luz St Sauveur, France
Posts: 4,101
What was the bird?
rosbifs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 18:41   #716
Andrew Whitehouse
Professor of Listening
BF Supporter 2020
 
Andrew Whitehouse's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 20,696
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosbifs View Post
What was the bird?
I'm not sure. The Cotswolds isn't particularly noted for rare stuff and I'm not aware of anything major that's been reported there recently.
__________________
Andrew

Listening to Birds
Andrew Whitehouse is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 18:42   #717
Deb Burhinus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 648
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Whitehouse View Post
Thanks for the link Andrew - it speaks for itself and exactly what I am afraid of - a handful of birders reflecting badly on all of us

I’m confused as to why they were reported to the RSPB though - it’s unlikely they were staff?
__________________
___________________________
ORNITHOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF THE MIDDLE EAST
THE CAUCASUS AND CENTRAL ASIA
http://www.osme.org

Last edited by Deb Burhinus : Wednesday 25th March 2020 at 18:43. Reason: tpo
Deb Burhinus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 18:48   #718
Lisa W
Super Moderator
BF Supporter 2020
 
Lisa W's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: RV traveling around the U.S.
Posts: 29,995
Ladies and Gentlemen please remember we closed down the thread that was naming “celebrities” that contracted the virus. Discussing the royal family is in the same vein.
Please remember the thread is on the affect of the virus on birding.
Thanks.
__________________
“Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken-winged bird that cannot fly” Langston Hughes

My birding photos
Lisa W is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 19:03   #719
tenex
Registered User
 
tenex's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
I really shouldn’t let myself be dragged further into this tirade other than to say my reading of your hyperbolic responses suggest you are the one presenting as ‘agitated’

This sounds very threatening and aggressive

As does this
Well, I'm less easily threatened than you are; it takes the prospect of living in a police state for an indefinite period of time. There is nothing "hyperbolic" about anything I've just said, I've only allowed myself to be provoked by your sanctimony (and whatever other issues you won't clarify). Everyone does well to avoid imputing motives to those they don't really know. I was obliged to guess at the relevance of your Locke quotation ("defend their life"?) because I saw none. And now you want to cry victim? I shouldn't have stepped into this mess myself.

Last edited by tenex : Wednesday 25th March 2020 at 21:07.
tenex is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 19:15   #720
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 17,975
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa W View Post
Ladies and Gentlemen please remember we closed down the thread that was naming “celebrities” that contracted the virus. Discussing the royal family is in the same vein.
Please remember the thread is on the affect of the virus on birding.
Thanks.
Some comments that followed were related to the possible advantage to birds, in the event that much of the aristocracy died out as they are the ones doing all the shooting which in turn, leads to persecution of raptors on large estates.

Why target my post, there are plenty on here that have nothing to do with birds?
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Wednesday 25th March 2020 at 19:18.
andyadcock is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 19:15   #721
Paul Chapman
Registered User
 
Paul Chapman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Clevedon
Posts: 9,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Whitehouse View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosbifs View Post
What was the bird?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Whitehouse View Post
I'm not sure. The Cotswolds isn't particularly noted for rare stuff and I'm not aware of anything major that's been reported there recently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
Thanks for the link Andrew - it speaks for itself and exactly what I am afraid of - a handful of birders reflecting badly on all of us

I’m confused as to why they were reported to the RSPB though - it’s unlikely they were staff?
Apparently Short-eared Owls at Hawling. Not a rare bird.

All the best
__________________
Paul Chapman

I've decided to start a self-find list as self-help to reduce my level of self-harm.
Paul Chapman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 19:35   #722
dantheman
Bah humbug
 
dantheman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 13,036
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post

I’m confused as to why they were reported to the RSPB though
So that they can be banned from all RSPB gift shops for life.
__________________
stithiansreservoirbirding.blogspot.co.uk/ - last update 10/11/15 - really rather remarkable still!!!
dantheman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 19:58   #723
lewis20126
Registered User
 
lewis20126's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMW View Post
Something I've been pondering is this: instead of universal lock down, identify every person who is known to be in a vulnerable class. Invite them to self-isolate, and provide as many resources to them as possible (shopping deliveries etc) to keep them safe and sound, but otherwise let everybody else get on with their lives as normal and let the virus run its course.

Perhaps this is a foolish idea, but it seems that every day the statement in the UK about the number of deaths refers to all the deceased having underlying health conditions.
Best isolation for vulnerable people would be ...ironically - on a cruise ship! Pre-tested staff, doctors and patients, keep them safe.

cheers, alan
lewis20126 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 21:30   #724
tenex
Registered User
 
tenex's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
The fact that I and others choose not to own cars, does not preclude me from voicing an obvious observation, that if everyone decided to use their cars for unnecessary journeys to circumvent restrictions, in order to go birding, or for any other leisure activity...
We are both obeying current restrictions in our locations, which are formulated differently. I am questioning the wisdom of what appear to be yours. You seem to be misunderstanding that, or at any rate not responding to what I've said or asked, but repeating yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
Why am I saying people don’t have an absolute right to liberty, because, In times of social hardship and loss of civil liberties (even to a noble end) people start to rebel if they perceive other people apparently not impacted by or avoiding curtailments. That’s why I said ‘if people see their neighbours get into their subaru for a jolly’ etc people will get angry and start to push back against the restrictions.
If you look back you will find that you didn't actually make that list bit clear, and you contrasted people who don't have a car with people who do, not people who take trips now with people who could but don't. That seems to have confused the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
I think I have responded to your posts with patience given your comments were threatening (as you intended them to be)...
There you go again attributing motives. I thought I reminded you that was a bad idea. Twice. Not to mention the complete absurdity: in what possible way could I be a threat to you? This is a hard time; take good care of yourself.

Last edited by tenex : Wednesday 25th March 2020 at 22:48. Reason: Brevity, clarity
tenex is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 21:49   #725
dantheman
Bah humbug
 
dantheman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 13,036
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
...
The
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenex View Post
...
Rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
...
Of
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenex View Post
...
Us
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenex View Post
...
Have
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenex View Post
...
To
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus ... Or was it tenex?
etc.
Read all this too you know ...

__________________
stithiansreservoirbirding.blogspot.co.uk/ - last update 10/11/15 - really rather remarkable still!!!

Last edited by dantheman : Wednesday 25th March 2020 at 23:33.
dantheman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Parrot virus threat to New Zealand's rare birds rockfowl Threatened Birds Of The world 0 Thursday 1st April 2010 12:09
Parrot virus threat to New Zealand's rare birds rockfowl Live Bird News from around the World 0 Thursday 1st April 2010 12:09
New Virus Dave101 Computers, Birding Software And The Internet 4 Saturday 4th June 2005 22:29
Help with Virus. harry eales Computers, Birding Software And The Internet 6 Friday 3rd June 2005 09:12
New Virus Richard Ford Ruffled Feathers 3 Thursday 5th June 2003 19:07

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.25140595 seconds with 40 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 07:40.