New Leica Scopes (1 Viewer)

On the point of cost, did anyone notice how much the new Swaro ELs were, about £1500/£1600 rrp. So that may help put a bit of perspective on the Lieca cost.

Robert L Jarvis said:

On the point of cost, did anyone notice how much the new Swaro ELs were, about £1500/£1600 rrp. So that may help put a bit of perspective on the Lieca cost.

Click to expand...

£1630 for the 8.5x42 and £1690 for the 10x42

Eegads! what to respond to first?!?...

Regarding the individual who compared the cost of an APO 62 purchased in 2005, I think it VERY important to consider that the American dollar has tanked considerably to the Euro over the 3 years since. As such "street price" for an APO Televid 62 and zoom eyepiece when discontinued last year was already ~$2300 and it is likely to assume this trend would have continued over this year.

Regarding durability issues, I think it important to note that the Televid scope when rolled out some 12 years ago was Leica's first forray into the spotting scope business (vs. ~90 years of binocular manufacturing at that point). As such, we've learned a lot about things that worked well and things that we could improve upon since. Typical of Leica, however, we have naturally incorporated all of this new found knowledge and consumer feed back into this second generation of scope. As such, I'm certain people will find these next generation products will stand the test of time even better than their predecessors. Despite negative jabs being thrown out here, I've found MOST consumers have absolutely loved their Televids over the years, and most are still being treated to stunning images after 8-9 years of use.

Regarding the complaints over consumer issues, I truly believe that the future of Leica Sport Optics is very bright. The fact that new management is recruiting experienced individuals from a variety of sources of late, including not only public figures like Gerold Dobler, but also additional support staff in the offices, etc. speaks volumous IMHO.

Regarding costs, I can't really speak intelligently here about R&D costs & pricing, except to say that significant improvements in quality and performance at the levels we are at now will come at a steep price obviously. One anecdote though, in the course of working some 25 consumer events annually, I regularly see someone using a pair of old "Leitz" Trinovids that they have owned >20 years and still love. So let's say you save a fair amount of money on a cheaper scope today. Is it still a good deal if you have to buy it twice to one piece that was say 25% more initially?!?... Food for thought and I'd invite all to go online to any resell spots and compare resale on Leica Televid scopes to ANY similarly aged competing product. I suspect there are few other products you could use for 6-8 years and sell for near what you paid for it after all that time!

Best,

Jeff

I have to say that having owned a Leica Scope and eyepiece for 7 years I have had to have the front lens recoated twice and having cleaned it recently the coating is now coming off for a third time, and boy do I clean it carefully now.

Leicas answers to this were

1 we have changed the coating method so it will not happen again, after the second recoating, but it has happened again within a few months so what was the truth there ??

2 - Use a UV filter. I'm not sure I'm happy I bought a £1200 scope in order to have to use a UV filter in order that the coating doesnt come off my scope. Anyway having tried a UV filter it seems to impart a lack of sharpness on photos when digiscoping (i've tested it on a stationary object with and without the UV filter) so its not an acceptable solution and it was an expensive filter.

Also the attachment point for the quick release plate wore out

The zoom eyepiece failed in that the ring that sets the magnification became loose until it no longer worked at all

Of my 3 close birding friends two have Leica scopes, one has just had his front lens recoated for the third time, while the other has had no coating problems but the zoom eyepiece will not stay locked into the scope, both currently have these faults away for repair. While my wifes Leica compacts are currently sitting in a draw with a big crack in the drawup eyepiece cup.

My positive comment would be the excellent service from the Leica service center who have always been very quick and helpful and hopefully will be again once the autumn is over and I have to send my scope back again (which in addition costs me £20 each time).

Despite all this I cant help feeling its bit of a kick in the teeth when you own 3 eyepieces to be told that you cannot now by a new Scope body to replace the one that you now feel is coming to the end of its life after only 7 years, rendering my three eyepieces which werent exactly cheap useless. I'm afraid from personal experience I would have to refute Jeffs comments that my scope is worth anywhere near now what I paid for it, my binoculars on the other hand, also Leica are still in excellent condition after 6 years.

The upshot of this is that while I would have bought a new Leica Scope body had my eyepieces been compatible my best option now seems to be to sell it all second hand and buy a Scope from one of Leicas competitors for a £1000 less than the new Leica, there no way that either my self or any of my friends will be splashing out £2500 for a new Leica scope and eyepiece combo.

Its obviously not that anyone think that its a bad thing for Leica to make a lovely new scope the unfair thing seems to be stopping producing the components to allow people to replace either body or eyepiece on their current system, my friend with the eyepiece being particularly worried because if it cannot be repaired he has a useless Scope body as he now cannot buy a new eyepiece that fits it.

I would welcome Jeffs comments

I wonder who'll be the first to introduce image stabilisation/vibration reduction to a scope? For an extra £1000 is it unreasonable to expect a bit more innovation. Being able to view a rock steady image would be more significant step forward than a marginal increase in optical performance.

On the subject of durability (recoating), I have had my Kowa TSN4 for over 15 years or since they came out which ever is the earlier and nothing has had to be done to it to keep it in prime operating condition.

Thorin
I have the same problem with eyepieces. On top of that the fixing in the scope is loose and they move. Rather than fix I want to replace, one more major replacement as I retire! With the eyepiece incompatibility and cost I will be buying a Kowa or Swaro, the additional cost is unjustified in my eyes, no unless the are 50% better than competitors and I doubt that.
I respect everyones arguments and opinions but to me Leica have missed a trick here and will price many out of the market. I am fortunate to be able to buy whichever I want but choose not to pay what I view as excessive cost. Many people will not be bale to afford it, in a relatively small market. Especially the younger end of birding world.

Phil

ikw101 said:

I wonder who'll be the first to introduce image stabilisation/vibration reduction to a scope? For an extra £1000 is it unreasonable to expect a bit more innovation. Being able to view a rock steady image would be more significant step forward than a marginal increase in optical performance.

Click to expand...

That's the best post I've read on this thread so far, I couldn't agree more. :t:
Being without a car I have to use the lightest possible tripod and have therefor settled for a 23x fixed mag eyepiece.
A stabilized scope would be a major improvement IMO.

Best regards,

Ronald

josika said:

The APOs are the top model so the HDs should be less expensive.

Click to expand...

I thought it was vice versa, cheers for that. :t:

Robert L Jarvis said:

On the subject of durability (recoating), I have had my Kowa TSN4 for over 15 years or since they came out which ever is the earlier and nothing has had to be done to it to keep it in prime operating condition.

Click to expand...

Well, the same holds for my Leica APO 77. I have had it ever since they started producing it. So I wonder whether it is the newer coatings - assuming they changed them - that are the problem?

thorin said:

I Its obviously not that anyone think that its a bad thing for Leica to make a lovely new scope the unfair thing seems to be stopping producing the components to allow people to replace either body or eyepiece on their current system, my friend with the eyepiece being particularly worried because if it cannot be repaired he has a useless Scope body as he now cannot buy a new eyepiece that fits it.

I would welcome Jeffs comments

Click to expand...

Hey Thorin,

You make some good points, and I'm glad service has continued to stand behind the product when you've had problems and sorry that you've had them at the same time. Regarding you wanting to hear my commentary on decisions made very high in the company by management, board of directors, etc..... "umm, NO!" ;p I'm afraid as the birder/naturalist representative for the US, they don't call me for advice on these business decisions, I typically only get calls when someone has a specific usage question regarding digiscoping or for the, "I saw this bird in my yard..."

I will say for the record though if we simply kept the same design and maintained the focal lengths required so the old eyepieces would work seemlessly, we would not have been able to add the revolutionary wide-angle eyepiece. Nor would we be able to take full advantage of everything we've learned over the past 12-13 years regarding different combinations of glass that offer superior light transmission, etc. Simply putting a new cover on the same product and trying to re-introduce it as a "NEW" product, might be "business as usual" for some manufacturers but not for Leica fortunately.

IMHO the Televid scope has out-performed its contemporaries over the past decade particularly regarding resolution at distance at higher magnifications. However, to reintroduce the same product again without taking advantage of revolutionary technologies we had at our disposal, would be the wrong decision. So I support the decision to make a new scope that has all of the advantages we can come to market with to insure it will remain a viable piece in the marketplace for a long time. Again remember I'm a birder and not a businessman though and I have lots of pretty bird pictures online to prove it!

There are a lot of current Televids out there, and yes new stock is gone (as are Trinovid binocs for that matter similarly), however I don't see this as a problem so long as you continue to receive quality service as you have to date. A spotting scope is a tool of the trade, and like any tool they can be worn down, broken, and eventually even need to be replaced. When I worked construction for a living I'd buy new cordless drills every other year or so, and now (travelling to 25-30 shows annually) I get new luggage each year. How often do we replace automobiles?!?... It's really all relative to the amount of use and abuse these items receive. At any rate, even given the buzz over the price, looking at the economy, inflation, etc. and the fact that most consumers will carry these products for a decade or more... So that's a mere only 250 quid annually to insure the best views money can buy! Serriously though, when we compare the price of a brand new state of the art piece to a competitors' decade old design, there will undoubtedly be a significant difference in price. However, this is likely to change dramatically as competitors follow suit and roll out new designs of their own.

For those interested in image stabilization. It's a neat idea but it would be a difficult sell for a lot of reasons. First, at present it seems the market is being driven by smaller size and less weight as primary concerns (even at the understood cost of optical performance in many cases). Taking a decent scope and adding electronics and gyros, etc is not going to make it lighter and certainly not smaller when you consider that the optics need room to "float" inside a larger body. The second issue is that of durability, when moving into the world of electronics you now have a piece of equipment you DO NOT want to drop or even smack into a tree, etc. Additionally, any electronics piece will carry a VERY short warranty period. It's these reasons along with battery issues, etc. that have really limited the growth of IS optics use in general. They're big, they're heavy, and they definitely don't "bounce" gracefully (an unfortunate side effect of having an optical system that needs to "float" freely rather than being solidly locked in place).

My random thoughts for the day. By the way did I mention my pretty bird pictures and a birding blog?... Something 25 years as a professional birder HAS prepared me for.

Jeff Bouton
Product Specialist - Birder/Naturalist Markets
Leica Sport Optics, USA
Leica Birding Blog:
www.birdwatchersdigest.com/leica
my digiscoped wildlife images:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16435490@N00/

thanks for the comments Jeff.
I suppose my real beef can be summed up that if you bought a car 7 years ago loved it but when a piece wore out you were then told that there were no more essential components and you had to scrap the whole thing you would be upset.

Thorin

Life’s a bitch – so they say.
So you have to buy a new eye piece with the new Leica scopes.
Canon ditched the FD mount for the EF (EOS) and we all got over that in time!



.

Today at the annual bird festival I had little time to visit the optics stands because I was doing bird cartoons in my own stand, but every so often I sneaked out to the Promised Land of Optics Delight. All was going well until I had a view through the new 82 Leica's with 25-50x zoom ocular. It's clearly better at 25x than my Zeiss 65 with 23x fixed eyepiece, was my impression. The field of view looks better, it's sharper and ease of viewing is incredible in the Leica. At 50x a Spoonbill half a kilometer away was showing great detail, with still bright image. This zoom scope simply is well worth the big bucks!

Needless to say I'll be using my Diascope for a few more years; I won't get rich and famous for my doodling I think...

It was a good day though, I picked up a new pair of binoculars, Minox BL 8x32 BR's for 380 euro's. Very impressive view, small and lightweight.
I went home tired but very happy.

Regards, Ronald

javva said:

Canon ditched the FD mount for the EF (EOS) and we all got over that in time!

Click to expand...

That is true, and actually Kowa has ditched their previous eyepiece mounts (at least) three times (screw mount -> TSN1 -> TSN820 -> TSN880). They do have always offered an adapter to use the previous eyepieces (but not vice versa), but I don't think many have actually used this possibility, because the new EPs have always been better - and it is difficult to sell the old scope without an EP.

I did ask Jeff about this option earlier
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=987234#post987234
and while he officially had to answer that no such adapters were "in the works", he did confirm that the new mount has a wider diameter. IMO this means that if Leica won't offer adapters to mount old (or astro) eyepieces to the new scope, it is likely that some third party makers or machining houses will.

Best regards,

Ilkka

thorin said:

thanks for the comments Jeff.
I suppose my real beef can be summed up that if you bought a car 7 years ago loved it but when a piece wore out you were then told that there were no more essential components and you had to scrap the whole thing you would be upset.

Thorin

Click to expand...

Thorin,

Not at all. You will still be able to get parts for repairs. The analogy above would only be accurate or valid if you wanted to buy a new car 7 years after they were discontinued. Your point was wanting to buy a new scope entirely. In the scope example or auto example the end result is the same. Discontinued = Discontinued
If you want to buy a discontinued item you have to search high and low for pieces that may still be on a dealer's shelf (and has been for a while) or you look at used options.

Best,

Jeff

Jeff
Good arguments but it still all comes down to value for money and how each individual assesses that factor.
One gripe with eyepiece incompatibility is that the existing ones are discontinued and now rare, the zoom for existing Leica in UK is very hard to get hold, so if you wanted to add to your existing you can't (not that I personally would buy the zoom).
Even with all my concerns may still end up staying with Leica. I upgraded my bins from Trinovid to Ultravid HD, real difference in the field. If the scopes are the same improvement, maybe! I'm sure that I'm not alone in not liking zoom eyepieces and having to (or more to the point being forced to) buy one grates.

Phil

hampers said:

Jeff
Good arguments but it still all comes down to value for money and how each individual assesses that factor.
One gripe with eyepiece incompatibility is that the existing ones are discontinued and now rare, the zoom for existing Leica in UK is very hard to get hold, so if you wanted to add to your existing you can't (not that I personally would buy the zoom).
Even with all my concerns may still end up staying with Leica. I upgraded my bins from Trinovid to Ultravid HD, real difference in the field. If the scopes are the same improvement, maybe! I'm sure that I'm not alone in not liking zoom eyepieces and having to (or more to the point being forced to) buy one grates.

Phil

Click to expand...

I still have the 20x60 zoom eyepiece that I used with my old Leica 62mm scope. I think one went for £219 on Ebay recently but I'd be happy to sell it for less. I also have the 26w (32W on the 77mm) if anyone is interested.

hampers said:

One gripe with eyepiece incompatibility is that the existing ones are discontinued and now rare, the zoom for existing Leica in UK is very hard to get hold, so if you wanted to add to your existing you can't (not that I personally would buy the zoom).

Click to expand...

I can see value in your point of view, and Jeff's. But, I have recently been selling off some old camera lenses, and a binocular, that I no longer use. I did this on ebay, and I've been pleasantly surprised at how well they have sold. I suspect that old style Leica eyepieces would sell well too. Quality tends to sell well. Okay, not ideal, but that new 25-50x eyepiece does look very nice, and for many of us would replace the old fixed eyepieces, assuming it lives up to the 'hype/hope'.

I still think the older scope is rather nice. Maybe if I discover a rich elderly has just croacked, and left me a wad, then I might 'upgrade'.