Am I missing out? (1 Viewer)

So I have a bit of experience with bins and still learning vast amounts more here on site with you guys, but,... I still have a hole in my knowledge: Porro prisms.

I seem to have missed out completely on the Porro scene. Now that I think about, I have zero experience with Porros.

I run across these inexpensive Steiner and Nikon ads of these little stubby things, and remember that they do not even NEED phase coating to produce good views.

Should I back up to investigate, or are these impractical these days?

Rob

Hi,

in my opinion, you don't miss a thing with Steiner porros.
As for Nikon, they range from cheap and and quite ok for the price (Aculon to Action EX) over wide field enthusiasts bins (E2) to sought after collectibles which used to be the best bins money could buy in 90s and still are close to or even with the current alphas (SE).

Just don't take 'em on a canoe trip or jungle excursion...

Joachim

jring said:

in my opinion, you don't miss a thing with Steiner porros.

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Good advice - IMHO: over-hyped, over-advertised, and under-performing -- even for uses they're designed for which I don't have (eg. marine use).

Steiners aside, though, and as a practical proposition, I strongly suspect that porro-prism binoculars, even very good ones, are for those of us who are somewhat "optical obsessives".

These days, it is probably no longer true that you can get as good a view for half the price by buying a porro, for most of the market at least (the high end is probably different). That seems so because there are few decent-enough porros produced any more. Right now you'd probably get as good a view through a Sightron SII Blue Sky roof bin (or one of it's clones) as you would through an equivalently-priced porro.

There are still a few higher-end porros out there, though. And while not convenient in some ways, I really like those I have - Nikon EIIs in 8x30 and 10x35. And I actually use both (esp. the 10x35s) as "out on my balcony" bins. I find them less practical elsewhere, though. However, I am awfully tempted to try a set of Habichts. Not for practical purposes so much as to feed my inner optical obsessive: my resistance so far is probably down to being unable to decide between 8x30 and 10x40 format. I'd also be tempted by good-condition Nikon SEs (should I ever stumble across some for sale).

None of which would be "smart" purchases, for practical use, so much as the "feeding the obsession" thing...

...Mike

The Nikon SE models have been used by me in all weather, except rain, I don't go out in it. So to me they provide excellent value and use. Unfortunately they are not made anymore.

Andy W.

Rob from Texas said:

So I have a bit of experience with bins and still learning vast amounts more here on site with you guys, but,... I still have a hole in my knowledge: Porro prisms.

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I tried the Nikon EII but just couldn't handle the exaggerated parallax at close range.

I do have a pair of Nikon 7x15M CF miniature reverse porros, and they are remarkably good considering the size, and the Canon 10x42L IS stabilized binoculars that are also a porro design, and also very good.

Most spotting scopes use a porro design as well.

If/when you're ready to consider binoculars with objectives larger than your ipd...

fazalmajid said:

I tried the Nikon EII but just couldn't handle the exaggerated parallax at close range.

I do have a pair of Nikon 7x15M CF miniature reverse porros, and they are remarkably good considering the size, and the Canon 10x42L IS stabilized binoculars that are also a porro design, and also very good.

Most spotting scopes use a porro design as well.

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Hello Fazalmajid,

You have pointed out an important aspect of Porro binoculars: they do not work well closeup. [To a slight extent roof Abbe-König binoculars have the same problem] Older Porro glasses had a close focus of around 5m because of that problem. The spacing of the objectives provide stereopsis but make short distance observation difficult. I have had no problems at distance of 4m.

My attitude is that I hardly need a binocular as close as 4m.

Quality in Porro binoculars varies as much as the price.

Stay safe,
Arthur

The good porro's like the Nikon SE, EII and Swarovski Habicht's are very good optically but generally not as convenient to use because they don't work as well for close up birding because of parallax, some have stiff focuser's and small eye cup's like the Habicht and generally the ergonomic's don't work as well as a good roof prism for most people. The EII's and SE's are not waterproof, fogproof or dust proof so they are more of a fair weather binocular. They actually suck in dust like an accordion when you focus them. I think that is why they have fallen out of favor and only a few good one's are left. They are like a Ferrari. Fun, but not real practical. But the thing about a porro which is attractive to a lot of people is the value. With a porro like the Nikon EII 8x30 for $400.00 you are getting a binocular that will perform optically with a $1000.00 roof. So if you are on a budget they are a bargain. A porro is a good choice if can't or don't want to spend $2K on an alpha roof.

[email protected] said:

...generally the ergonomic's don't work as well as a good roof prism for most people

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I beg to disagree - ergonomics on the SE 10x42 are quite exemplary - good eye relief for use with glasses, long enough eyecups for those without, the famous Nikon focus drive - precise and neither too light nor too stiff, quite lightweight for a full size pair, very balanced and easy to grip for those with medium sized hands and above... beside the obvious praise for the optics I have also gotten quite a few comments about how nice they feel.

Regarding the close focus question - all the modern roofs with close focus point slowly approaching 1m - they also have their objectives too far apart to use comfortably at their close focus point. If your pair has large enough exit pupils and your facial physiognomy allows it, you can try to decrease the IPD a bit... but in order to get that close you need a reverse porro.

Joachim

Roof prism binoculars give me the sensation of greater magnification than an equivalent power porro prism. Anyone else?

18000bph said:

Roof prism binoculars give me the sensation of greater magnification than an equivalent power porro prism. Anyone else?

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Closer spacing of the objectives seems to play quite a large part in this, so a reverse porro may give a sensation of greater magnification than a roof prism model of same actual magnification.

18000bph said:

Roof prism binoculars give me the sensation of greater magnification than an equivalent power porro prism. Anyone else?

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Me too.

[email protected] said:

Me too.

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Thanks to all who have been making the “P” in Porro a capital letter (Ignazio Porro, 1801-1875). Also, with no reticle or crosshair in most binos, “parallax” isn’t a problem. The problem is a spatial disparity problem ... an error in collimation. I realize it’s popular to use “parallax” incorrectly. But if 100 people misuse the word, it’s still the wrong word. I don't have a dog in this show but I thought some might like to know.:cat:

'Back in my hole, now.

Bill

Rob, yes I think you are absolutelly missing out on something great

I'm a lover of porros, and I think even in 2020 they offer so much both in terms of pure performance but also in more subtle areas, such as plasticity of the image.

Some days ago I was testing two very good 8x32 roofs, Leica Ultravid HD and Zeiss FL. Both have been the top models of their brands until not that long ago, with a retail price in excess of 1500 €/$. The view was really nice through either of those. Buth then I added the Nikon E2 8x30 into the mix. An eye-opener. None of the top roofs could match the 3D view, the plasticity and sense of "being there" that the little porro offered at 1/4 of the price. I guess that's one very good reason to at leas take them into account.

Then there's the shape/fit/grip factor. I completely agree with Joachim: for me some porros have the best "grip" of any binoculars I've tried. The Nikon SE just merge in your hands to the point that they seem to disappear, to become one with your hand (which I think is the ultimate goal of a binocular; just like a translator or an interpreter, the great ones make you forget they're there). These days I'm using (with great joy!) a quite inexpensive porro, the 8x32 Foresta, and the grip is just mind-blowing. I know some people like open hinge design while others prefer narrow bridge and a lot of space on the tubes. I think my favourite grip is a porro with tapered "shoulders". Have a look at the picture. My hand in a "natural" position... and then the Foresta fits in like a tailored glove, with index and middle finger resting effortlessly on the focus wheel. But even classic porros like the Habicht have a sensational grip; the "lobed" shape of the tubes (not straight) in classical porros makes for a more "organic grip" (if you know what I mean).

And on pure optical performance, I'm sure there's a lot of well informed forum members here to talk you about the technicalities, but there are still some porros among the top performers. Take the Fujinon FMT (yes, I know it is not a "birders bino", but I think it serves to illustrate the point), its performance is just stunning. Or the small and humble-looking Habicht; a wolf in sheeps skin. If I had endless resources, I'd have a Habicht just for the sheer pleasure of looking through it: such a bright, sharp and sensational view. If you like binoculars, I think you should at least try some of those once. There are great roof binoculars (most current top-nocht binoculars) as there are Abbe-König (FL, WX)... but there also great performing porros, both in the top-end and the lower step of the ladder (take the Kowa YF, Leupold Yosemite).

As for close-focusing problems. Well, yes, most roofs will focus closer than classic porros. But if you want the ultimate macro view, well, then it's porros again, Pentax Papilio (yes, I know it's a reverse porro, but makes the point). As Arthur says, most of what we do is watch birds that are far away (mind you, I love watching lizards and bugs, and I do appreciate a good close focus).

To quote Holger Merlitz: don't dismiss the porros

Hello Yarelli,

I sold my Nikon 8x30 EII after buying a Zeiss 8x32 FL, a sale I regret. I found the Zeiss just less delicate than the Nikon and I have become a bit clumsy as I age. However, I occasionally use very old Porro glasses without feeling that I am missing anything.

Stay safe,
Arthur

Thanks guys !!! All good inputs.

I snooped around a bit, it's a tricky market since the current offering are all inexpensive.
Seems that economy manufacturers rule the current Porro prism market.
Makes it very hard to guess which is a quality buy.

Not that I'm ready to try one just yet. Not sure I'd want to take that project on.
It might be fun, but I have the feeling I'd have to kiss a lot of frogs....

Btw, Pinewood, like your signature saying....reference to ancient Rome maybe?


Rob

Rob from Texas said:

Thanks guys !!! All good inputs.

...
Btw, Pinewood, like your signature saying....reference to ancient Rome maybe?


Rob

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Hello Rob,

Certainly! In the ancient world, circuses referred to chariot racing.

Stay safe,
Arthur

Hi Rob,

Looking at the current range of centre focus Porro prism binoculars suitable for general use:
- mass production is at the low end e.g. the Nikon Aculon and Action EX series’
- the only real mid-cost/ high performance line is the Nikon EII’s
- and at the high end there are the Swarovski Habichts

However, the best way to dip your toe into Porro waters, is to start with a second-hand unit
While there’s a whole world of quality used models to choose from, for one to use you’ll want a multi-coated unit

To keep things simple, I’d suggest one of the previous generation of Nikon’s premium binoculars - the E series
And the 8x30 with it’s 145 m field of view is a particularly attractive starting point
For a quality review, see that of Roger Vine at: http://www.scopeviews.co.uk/Nikon8x30E.htm

For the serial number ranges of the various multi-coated E models, see post #10 at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=381049

And so you can have a high degree of confidence if buying on the net, see my comments in post #6 at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=380831


Good luck in starting out on what may grow to become a minor obsession!


John


p.s. And the answer to your initial question is a resounding 'Yes' - if you don't have the experience of using a quality Porro, you're missing out on a lot!

Hello Rob,

I would only add that for those who use eyeglasses Porros generally offer less eye relief and restrict the field of view. There are one or two exceptions, but not many. Apart from that, world-class birding binoculars are found quite often on eBay in the form of Model 804 8.5x44 Swift Audubons.

In recent years I acquired two in mint condition for less than $150 each. See Post #15 at THIS site for more detail. Swift's former chief repairman, Nicolas Crista, is available for tuneups if necessary at a reasonable price.*

Ed

* I spoke with my old friend Nick today for over an hour. Customers need to call and leave a message. He'll get back to you.

Rob from Texas said:

Should I back up to investigate, or are these impractical these days?

Rob

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A lot really depends on:

- what you can get your hands on, and how conveniently; and

- how interested you are in binoculars in themselves, as opposed to tools for observing birds.

If you're looking for a practical birding binocular, there are more than enough quality roof binoculars that will do at least as good a job at bird identification and observation as any porro ever made, with fewer quirks (weather resistance, eye relief, etc) that you simply need not go to the time and trouble of sourcing something like a Nikon SE.

If you're a binocular enthusiast, I guess it's a little different, and if you can take a look through good porros from both the 50s/60s era and those made more recently, I'm sure you'll find it an interesting and enjoyable experience. But, as almost all of them are no longer in production, finding good examples to look at may be very troublesome.

Porros do still seem to be regularly used by the astronomy crowd, and if that's your thing, Cloudynights may be a better source of info.