HELP! difference?Japanese and Great Cormorants (1 Viewer)

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

Hi!

I need help distinguishing if possible between the Japanese and Great Cormorant in 2 sets of 5 photos.

The first set (photos 1A,1B) was taken from a train off the coast of Asari, Hokkaido, Japan.

The second set (photos 2,3,5)was taken maybe 2 kilometers up river from the ocean in Yoichi, Hokkaido, Japan.

It has been seen and stated that both kinds inhabit the area, but i am dumbfounded to see any way to tell in these photos.
Any help is well appreciated

Thanks!
Jeff

Alexjh1 · May 12, 2018

Do you have larger versions of the pictures? Specifically the face?

The last time this topic came up, there was a bit of debate on it, but my understanding remains that it's the shape of the yellow section on the lower mandible that is key: if it forms roughly a square, it's a great cormorant, if it forms more of a triangle heading back towards the front of the bill, it's a japanese.

With that said, I think the first bird is a Japanese Cormorant, but can't see the others well enough to decide.

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

clarity of photos

Thanks Alex!

Actually I went out to another area today on a whim and found a few better photos, I THINK they are of the same varieties as the others posted above.
They tend to fly back and forth along the coast in this area.

give a few minutes to get them processed and uploaded....
Thanks again for taking the time to comment and help me out. Well appreciated. Useful hints too!

Jeff

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

photos added

Here are some of the photos from today
with the lens I had.

Jeff

MacNara · May 12, 2018

Hi OtaruJef:

The recent thread referenced was this one. The conversation about cormorants got a bit heated (partly by me, for which apologies). But there is some good information in there. Mark Brazil's book shows the faces fairly well, but it's not always so obvious in the field.

Welcome to Bird Forum. I assume from your number of posts and join date that you are fairly new in Japan, and not just a long-term Japan resident who has taken up birding. You could always PM HokkaidoStu, who is in Hakodate (blogs as Hakodate Birding) and is right next to you, and might be willing to introduce you to some places (though I think he doesn't necessarily check BF that often - maybe you could contact him through his blog; or you could PM me and I could send him a direct email and ask him if he'd like to be in touch with you). He's been helpful to me on a couple of visits to Hokkaido, even though I wasn't able to meet him in person.

I still disagree with him about the relative presence of the two cormorants in Japan outside Hokkaido, however (and I'm not sure about Hokkaido - my experience continues to be that birds on the coast, as opposed to on offshore rocks, are Great).

As for your birds: 1 (a & b) looks like probable Temmincks to me. 3 is unidentifiable. All the others look like Great to me, without any standing out as 'difficult'.

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

Hi!
Thanks Mac!
Actually I have lived 1 year in Tokyo and 10 years now in Otaru.
just recently got back into birding, then back in 1979.
I do have Mark Brazil's book, which is useful, but as you say in the field it is more difficult.
I have contacted Stu, who has referred me to people who are still quite some distance away.
So, i poke around on my own with where I can discover within an hour or so by train.

"All the others look like Great to me, without any standing out as 'difficult'."
means they are easily identifiable as Great Cormorants, or you meant they are difficult to pin down?

Location whether inland on rivers or coastal rocks, has by some been a definite key to separate them and others say they hang out together.
Since I was in California in 1979 when i did birding last, it is a new world here with alot to see and learn!
quite enjoyable for sure.

Please let me know what you meant about the last sets, so i can study them again to understand.
I look to find spots i can see them much more up close.

Thanks again!

Jeff

Jeff

MacNara · May 12, 2018

Well give Hokkaido Stu (Stuart Price) an email! He seems like a very nice guy, and if you've been there that long, I'm surprised you don't know him.

[Edit: sorry, for some reason, only the first three lines of your post were visible to me when I sent this.]

MacNara · May 12, 2018

And on this topic: I'm up at 1:30 am because my wife and I went to a spectacular concert in Nara this evening, and I'm winding down over a couple of beers and a little interenet. What's your excuse? It can't be 24 hour daylight in Hokkaido surely?

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

oh,
you know about the 24 hour daylight and snow in Hokkaido? lol

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

Glad you had fun tonight

MacNara · May 12, 2018

Otarujef said:
"All the others look like Great to me, without any standing out as 'difficult'."
means they are easily identifiable as Great Cormorants, or you meant they are difficult to pin down?

Means there are none that I think I would mark as possible Temminck's, but you can't be 100% sure on all of them (and I think there are none that could be marked possible Temminck's.)

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

"All the others look like Great to me, without any standing out as 'difficult'."
means they are easily identifiable as Great Cormorants, or you meant they are difficult to pin down?

the added photos in post#4 help at all?

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

so we just settle on "Comorants" for this one??? lol

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

btw,
the first set of Cormorants (1A,1B) were located on coastal rocks near, Asari, Hokkaido on the sea of Japan. Only seen from the JR train, and not easily at all to access them, except perhaps by boat. Photos 3,4,5 were on the Yoichi River, Yoichi Hokkaido, Japan - 2 kilometers up river from the sea of Japan. The Cormorants were mostly flying from upriver down to the sea.

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

second group of Cormorants from post #4

These were off the coast around the cape near the Otaru Aquarium.
Here is photos of them together.

Otarujef · May 12, 2018

Maybe fortunate enough if Hokkaido Stu has a chance to chime in on this one too.

Nutcracker · May 12, 2018

Alexjh1 said:
... my understanding remains that it's the shape of the yellow section on the lower mandible that is key: if it forms roughly a square, it's a great cormorant, if it forms more of a triangle heading back towards the front of the bill, it's a japanese.

Sounds very like the criteria to distinguish nominate Atlantic carbo from Eurasian Continental sinensis . . . which is tricky as they hybridise in some colonies in NW Europe.

Wondering if perhaps Japanese should similarly be lumped as just another oceanic-adapted subspecies of P. carbo s.l., like the nominate subspecies?

Alexjh1 · May 12, 2018

Nutcracker said:
Sounds very like the criteria to distinguish nominate Atlantic carbo from Eurasian Continental sinensis . . . which is tricky as they hybridise in some colonies in NW Europe.

Wondering if perhaps Japanese should similarly be lumped as just another oceanic-adapted subspecies of P. carbo s.l., like the nominate subspecies?

I don't claim to know under what pretext they were recognised as a separate species in the first place, but there are differences other than that too - that's just from the stuff I read when trying to get to grips with them the most constant feature across ages/plumages?

kb57 · May 12, 2018

Alexjh1 said:
my understanding remains that it's the shape of the yellow section on the lower mandible that is key: if it forms roughly a square, it's a great cormorant, if it forms more of a triangle heading back towards the front of the bill, it's a japanese.

With that said, I think the first bird is a Japanese Cormorant, but can't see the others well enough to decide.

Mark Brazil states specifically 'yellow skin forms vertical border just behind eye then extends to sharp point at gape, and forms small rounded patch on chin and below bill'
On a recent trip to Hokkaido and Honshu, I only had one which fitted that description, a 1st winter bird on Tairo Ike lake, Miyakejima. The clincher for me was yellow skin just formed a narrow ring round most of the rear circumference of the eye, then extended in an almost horizontal line to a sharp point behind the gape (as opposed to extending back at a shallower angle, leaving more yellow behind the eye). TBH from there it didn't head back at a particularly acute angle towards the lower bill, but there was less yellow skin under the lower mandible, consistent with the illustrations in Birds of East Asia.
Not my most exciting bird of that particular day, fortunately...
Returning to the OP, I'd concur with pics #1 & 2 being consistent with Brazil's description of Japanese - I think you can just about make out the lack of yellow skin behind the eye.

HELP! difference?Japanese and Great Cormorants (1 Viewer)

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