Leica 10x50 BA vs new models (1 Viewer)

Pinewood · Jul 4, 2019

Hello,

The Leica BA line, like the BN's had silver coated prisms to provide high reflection [unneeded in Porro binoculars].
Later models had dielectric coatings on those prism surfaces. Dielectric coatings are supposed to provide better colour rendition and perhaps greater transmission. I would guess that the colour rendition and contrast would be noticeably different between the BA and current models.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:

Bhauer · Jul 4, 2019

Pinewood said:
Hello,

The Leica BA line, like the BN's had silver coated prisms to provide high reflection [unneeded in Porro binoculars].
Later models had dielectric coatings on those prism surfaces. Dielectric coatings are supposed to provide better colour rendition and perhaps greater transmission. I would guess that the colour rendition and contrast would be noticeably different between the BA and current models.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:

That would probably make a noticeable difference. Thank you for that information!

Bhauer · Jul 4, 2019

The good news is I had a fairly large sale last week in Real Estate. (That’s what I do.). So I am considering heavily the 8x50 Noctivids. There is a seller on EBay who sells them for less than 2k and has 100% perfect feedback. I may go that direction as this sale firms up.

dries1 · Jul 4, 2019

Do you mean 8x50 Ultravids or 8X42 Noctivids, which one?, the 8X50 Noctivid does not exist.

Andy W.

Bhauer · Jul 5, 2019

dries1 said:
Do you mean 8x50 Ultravids or 8X42 Noctivids, which one?, the 8X50 Noctivid does not exist.

Andy W.

Sorry,... I meant 8x42 Noctivids. Leaning that way because of the size for travel.

tenex · Jul 6, 2019

Pinewood said:
I would guess that the colour rendition and contrast would be noticeably different between the BA and current models.

There's a family resemblance in overall color, and I find the difference rather subtle in most situations. We were just out today with a 10x32 BN and UVHD+. The UV seems a tad brighter and more saturated or contrasty when compared directly, but I could use the BN all day (and have) without finding fault. The difference seems most apparent when viewing a low-contrast subject, where the UV shows detail more easily.

denco@comcast.n · Jul 6, 2019

tenex said:
There's a family resemblance in overall color, and I find the difference rather subtle in most situations. We were just out today with a 10x32 BN and UVHD+. The UV seems a tad brighter and more saturated or contrasty when compared directly, but I could use the BN all day (and have) without finding fault. The difference seems most apparent when viewing a low-contrast subject, where the UV shows detail more easily.

I find very little difference in overall color or brightness between the Leica models. According to Allbino's the transmission is about the same also. In fact the older BR has 89% transmission and the UVHD+ has 87%.

https://www.allbinos.com/allbinos_ranking-binoculars_ranking-10x42.html

Conndomat · Jul 6, 2019

[email protected] said:
The Swarovski SLC 10x56 would be better in low light than the SLC 8x56 regardless of how much your pupils dilate.

Hello,

I do not know why they keep sticking to this nonsense, this gentleman has exhaustively tested all three SLCs (8x56, 10x56 and 15x56) and can not confirm their claim .
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/444644-the-new-swarovski-slc-56s-under-the-stars/
"Of the 3 SLC's, the 8x56 are the brightest.
The new SLC 10x56
These are great allround binoculars for both night- and daytime observing. Brightness is a notch below the SLC 8X56's."

Andreas

denco@comcast.n · Jul 7, 2019

Conndomat said:
Hello,

I do not know why they keep sticking to this nonsense, this gentleman has exhaustively tested all three SLCs (8x56, 10x56 and 15x56) and can not confirm their claim .
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/444644-the-new-swarovski-slc-56s-under-the-stars/
"Of the 3 SLC's, the 8x56 are the brightest.
The new SLC 10x56
These are great allround binoculars for both night- and daytime observing. Brightness is a notch below the SLC 8X56's."

Andreas

The SLC 10x56 will show more detail in low light than the SLC 8x56 because the higher magnification gives it a higher "Twilight Factor". The SLC 8x56 will be brighter because it will have more "Relative Brightness" than the SLC 10x56 if your pupils can dilate big enough to take advantage of the bigger exit pupil. Here is an explanation of the two terms.

"Relative Brightness and Twilight Factors for Binoculars & Scopes
If you have been looking for a new pair of binoculars or spotting scope, you have probably seen brightness and/or twilight factors reported with the various specifications and in reviews.

Both values are useful if you understand what the numbers mean and under what situations they can be used.

Relative Brightness
Relative brightness is a theoretical estimation of how bright the image should be when viewed through binoculars or spotting scopes. It is calculated by simply squaring the exit pupil value. The exit pupil is the size of the beam of light that comes out into your eye. Sometimes, this value is also reported with the binocular or spotting scope specifications, but it is also easily calculated by dividing the size of the objective lens by the magnification.

For example (see Table 1), an 8 x 50 (8 power magnification and 50 mm objective lens) binocular has an exit pupil value of 6.25 (50/8). Compare that to 10 X 50 pair of binoculars, where 50/10= 5.0 exit pupil. Then square each exit pupil value to get relative brightness values of 37.5 for the 8 X 50 and 25.0 for the 10 X 50 binoculars. The 10 X 50s have only 67% of the relative brightness of the 8 X 50 binoculars.

Table 1. Exit Pupil and Relative Brightness Calculations for Common Binocular Sizes
Mag. & Objective Equation 1 Exit Pupil Equation 2 Rel. Brightness Rel. to 8×50
8 x 50 50/8 = 6.25 6.25 x 6.25 = 39.1 1.00
10 x 50 50/10 = 5.0 5.0 x 5.0 = 25.0 0.67
12 x 50 50/12 = 4.17 4.17 x 4.17 = 17.4 0.46
8 x 42 42/8 = 5.25 5.25 x 5.25 = 27.6 0.74
10 x 42 42/10 = 4.2 4.2 x 4.2 = 17.6 0.47
8 x 32 32/8 = 4.0 4.0 x 4.0 = 16.0 0.43
10 x 32 32/10 = 3.2 3.2 x 3.2 = 10.2 0.27
In table 1, you can see relative brightness values for several sizes of binoculars. I also included the ratio of each value to the 8 x 50 binoculars for comparison.

You will notice that as magnification increases and/or as objective lens size becomes smaller, the relative brightness values decrease as light is lost. In the table, the 8 x 50 binoculars will have the brightest image and the 10 x 32s will have the darkest image.

Twilight Factor
Twilight factor is a theoretical estimation of how much detail can be seen in low light and is estimated by first multiplying the magnification by the objective lens size, and then taking the square root of that product. So twilight factor can increase with an increase of either magnification and objective lens size or both. The twilight factor can also remain the same if the magnification is doubled but the objective size is cut in half (and vice versa).

For example, the 8 X 50 binoculars would be 8 times 50 =400, then the square root of 500 = 20.0 value for twilight factor. The twilight factor for the 10 X 50 is simply 10 times 50 = 500 and the the square root of 500 = 22.4, so the 10 X 50s have a 12% detail advantage over the 8 X 50s in low light.

Table 2. Twilight Factor Calculations for Common Binocular Sizes
Mag. & Objective Equation Twilight Factor Rel. to 12×50
8 x 50 sq. root (8 x 50) = 20.0 0.82
10 x 50 sq. root (10 x 50) = 22.4 0.91
12 x 50 sq. root (12 x 50) = 24.5 1.00
8 x 42 sq. root (8 x 42) = 18.3 0.75
10 x 42 sq. root (10 x 42) = 20.5 0.84
8 x 32 sq. root (8 x 32) = 16.0 0.65
10 x 32 sq. root (10 x 42) = 17.9 0.73
In table 2, the twilight factor has bee calculated for several sizes of binoculars. I also included the ratio of each value to the 12 x 50 binoculars for comparison. You will notice that as magnification decreases and as the objective lens becomes smaller, the twilight factor decrease as detail is lost. In the table, the 12 x 50s will show the most detail in low light and the 8 x 32s will have the least detail.

How to Use Relative Brightness and Twilight factors
Remember that both the relative brightness and twilight factors are theoretical, so we have to be careful about using these values to make comparisons between different brands and styles of binoculars or spotting scopes. If we want to compare optics of similar quality and style, then theory and reality can be nearly equal and we can get a good idea of which models should have better light gathering ability or ability to see detail in low light conditions. So both of these values are very useful for comparing different magnifications and objective lenses of the same brand and model.

But if you try comparing cheap optics with good quality optics, then theory and reality part company. If you test this in the field, you will see that high quality binoculars gather more light than cheaper binoculars even when the brightness numbers tell you they should be about the same. You will also see more detail in low light with quality binoculars than less expensively built binoculars."

Conndomat · Jul 7, 2019

Criticism of the twilight number: Two binoculars, 8 × 56 and 56 × 8 (such a model does not exist, but would be theoretically feasible) have the same twilight of 21, 2! While a 8x56 is perfect for twilight, a 56x8 is completely useless even during the day. ALWAYS a major exit pupil (AP) is crucial and important for use at dusk. Ideally, at least as large as the pupil of the user. Anything with an AP of less than 4 mm is therefore unsuitable for reducing the light - even if the DZ is still so high.
https://www.zeiss.de/content/dam/SportsOptics/downloadcentre/catalogs/zeiss-optikbuch-2017-de.pdf

[email protected] said:
The SLC 10x56 will show more detail in low light than the SLC 8x56 because the higher magnification gives it a higher "Twilight Factor".

The greater detail recognition helps little if an object is no longer visible due to lack of brightness!

Andreas

Mike F · Jul 7, 2019

Conndomat said:
The greater detail recognition helps little if an object is no longer visible due to lack of brightness!

You don’t help your argument with examples like this. When or how could that ever actually be the case? Perhaps you’re just exaggerating to make a point? Whether you are serious or not is a bit irrelevant - twilight factor and relative brightness are not particularly contentious issues.

chill6x6 · Jul 7, 2019

If you want to know which format works for you in low light nothing beats hands on experience.

The difference in a 8X56 and 10X56 is....not much. Most of the comparisons I've done have been at dusk and not true darkness. I would prefer a 10X56 every time.

Twilight factor- for this to work the exit pupil needs to be close to ones dilated pupil size I would think.

denco@comcast.n · Jul 7, 2019

chill6x6 said:
If you want to know which format works for you in low light nothing beats hands on experience.

The difference in a 8X56 and 10X56 is....not much. Most of the comparisons I've done have been at dusk and not true darkness. I would prefer a 10X56 every time.

Twilight factor- for this to work the exit pupil needs to be close to ones dilated pupil size I would think.

Chuck. Why would you prefer the 10x56 over the 8x56 at dusk?

denco@comcast.n · Jul 7, 2019

Conndomat said:
Criticism of the twilight number: Two binoculars, 8 × 56 and 56 × 8 (such a model does not exist, but would be theoretically feasible) have the same twilight of 21, 2! While a 8x56 is perfect for twilight, a 56x8 is completely useless even during the day. ALWAYS a major exit pupil (AP) is crucial and important for use at dusk. Ideally, at least as large as the pupil of the user. Anything with an AP of less than 4 mm is therefore unsuitable for reducing the light - even if the DZ is still so high.
https://www.zeiss.de/content/dam/SportsOptics/downloadcentre/catalogs/zeiss-optikbuch-2017-de.pdf

The greater detail recognition helps little if an object is no longer visible due to lack of brightness!

Andreas

You can say "Twilight Factor" doesn't work by using weird formats of binoculars and true it is not perfect but it a pretty good way of comparing the low light performance of different binoculars. Both "Relative Brightness" and "Twilight Factor" are important in judging the low light performance of a binocular. But in comparing an 8x56 and a 10x56 most people will see more detail at dusk with the 10x56 assuming there is enough light to see although if your pupils can open to 7mm the 8x56 will appear brighter. For a lot of people especially those that are older the 8x56 will not even appear brighter because their pupils don't open wide enough to take advantage of the bigger exit pupil. Try reading a license plate at dusk with a 10x56 and a 8x56 of equivalent optical quality at dusk and you will see it is easier with the 10x56. If the object isn't visible it is time to get out the Night Vision Binoculars preferably Generation III.

Conndomat · Jul 7, 2019

Mike F said:
You don’t help your argument with examples like this. When or how could that ever actually be the case? Perhaps you’re just exaggerating to make a point? Whether you are serious or not is a bit irrelevant - twilight factor and relative brightness are not particularly contentious issues.

Well, then they seem to be smarter than the optical developers of Zeiss and Swarovski!
"The statement "the greater the twilight, the better
the suitability in the dusk "applies only if the
Exit pupil larger or at least the same size as the
Eye pupil is. If the exit pupil is smaller, then only one
Part of the eye pupil illuminated. The eye gets too little
Light and the picture appears dark.
More important is the greatest possible value
the exit pupil."
http://www.optik-foto-mueller.com/swarovski/Jungjägerbroschüre.pdf
Of course, it is crucial that the binoculars user the 7mm. AP. can also use, opens the eye "only" to 5.6mm. would be preferable here 10x56.
My AP. opens up to 6.8 mm. (Measured by the ophthalmologist) and I see a noticeable difference between a 8x56 and 10x56, so AP .. measure.

Andreas

chill6x6 · Jul 7, 2019

[email protected] said:
Chuck. Why would you prefer the 10x56 over the 8x56 at dusk?

As you say....go out and read a license plate or sign at dusk and I bet most would pick the 10X56 vs. the 8X56. There's not going to be a WHOLE lot of difference though. There's not even a lot of difference between a 8X32 and a 8X42.

Several years ago I used to use riflescopes a lot and at dusk too. Most of the ones I used were Schmidt and Bender and Swarovski with 56mm objective. When it would get to sunset I would pre-adjust the riflescope to 8X due to numerous publications telling me all about exit pupil and pupil dilation to 7mm in darkness. HOWEVER, without exception the most detail could be seen at 10X. Not a lot of difference but I sure didn't feel handicapped at 10X vs 7 or 8X. So at least for me, there is a tradeoff somewhere along the way of pupil dilation/exit pupil vs magnification. There does of course get to a point close to darkness where you just can't see the object regardless of anything!

denco@comcast.n · Jul 7, 2019

"HOWEVER, without exception the most detail could be seen at 10X."

Yup.

"There does of course get to a point close to darkness where you just can't see the object regardless of anything!"

Generation III Night Vision. I have one of those too.

dries1 · Jul 7, 2019

How does the Gen III night vision perform looking up a steep slope at mountain goats or bighorn at night with the moon cascading over the peak, is there any glare/ghosting.
Just a joke Dennis...,I do agree with the minimal improvements for the Leica 10X50 format. Besides the ergonomic improvement/weight, eyecups, (insignificant increased FOV) the Leica BA is not that far behind thee UV HD+, still a great 10X50. This is a format where the big three(L,Z,SV) rule, hands down.

IMO the SLC 10X56 or the FL 10X56 is the consummate night glass, then again the FL 8X56 is a great choice also, however I prefer the increased magnification in this format esp when used under low light.

Andy W.

Mike F · Jul 7, 2019

chill6x6 said:
As you say....go out and read a license plate or sign at dusk and I bet most would pick the 10X56 vs. the 8X56. There's not going to be a WHOLE lot of difference though. There's not even a lot of difference between a 8X32 and a 8X42.

Absolutely. Sure, I can tell a difference at dusk between my Nikon 7x50 marine bins and my 10x25 BCA's, but a difference in brightness between the Nikons and my 7x42 UVHD+.......nah, and if I had to go out and read that number plate I'd certainly take the 10x42 NV's!

denco@comcast.n · Jul 7, 2019

"Just a joke Dennis...,I do agree with the minimal improvements for the Leica 10X50 format. Besides the ergonomic improvement/weight, eyecups, (insignificant increased FOV) the Leica BA is not that far behind thee UV HD+, still a great 10X50. This is a format where the big three(L,Z,SV) rule, hands down.

IMO the SLC 10X56 or the FL 10X56 is the consummate night glass, then again the FL 8X56 is a great choice also, however I prefer the increased magnification in this format esp when used under low light."

Yup. I agree!

Leica 10x50 BA vs new models (1 Viewer)

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