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Saxicola ID please

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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 10:15   #1
CyberDoc
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Saxicola ID please

These birds were photographed in Pahalgam, Kashmir.

http://www.kashmirnetwork.com/birds/bushchat_grey00.jpg
http://www.kashmirnetwork.com/birds/bushchat_grey01.jpg
http://www.kashmirnetwork.com/birds/bushchat_grey02.jpg

I had them marked down as Saxicola Ferrea [ http://www.delhibird.org/species/sp05819.htm ] but someone suggested this link:
http://www.rdb.or.id/detailbird.php?id=35

The white stripe on the wings is absent on the S. Ferrea in the second image on the first { DelhiBird } link but matches the illustration on the second { Red Data BOOK } link.

What do you think? Thanks.
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Last edited by CyberDoc : Sunday 1st August 2004 at 10:16. Reason: mixed up links
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 10:34   #2
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Hi CyberDoc,

White-browed Bushchat is now commonly known at Stoliczka's Bushchat - you may have better success in a google search if you use that new name...?

According to "Stonechats" by Ewan Urquhart, Stoliczka's should show a strong white rump contrasting against jet black upperparts and also extensive white in the tail. The tail is also much shorter than ferrea

Therefore yours is most probably ferrea. I think...

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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 12:42   #3
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I guessed as much but wanted to be sure. Thanks.

P.S What is the generally accepted nomenclature system. I was under the impression that the most definitive was the Sibley-Monroe checklist. It refers to Saxicola Ferrea as White-browed Bushchat. Has it been replaced by a more authoritative source? Can I download a copy somewhere for ready reference.
Thanks.
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 13:45   #4
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Hi Cyber,

I'd agree with Grey Bushchat (Saxicola ferrea) for your photos

Seems to be an error there in Sibley & Monroe, White-browed Bushchat is given as an alternative name for Stoliczka's Bushchat (S. macrorhyncha)

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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 15:20   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberDoc

P.S What is the generally accepted nomenclature system. I was under the impression that the most definitive was the Sibley-Monroe checklist. It refers to Saxicola Ferrea as White-browed Bushchat. Has it been replaced by a more authoritative source? Can I download a copy somewhere for ready reference.
Thanks.
Cyberdoc,
The "One List" that puts everyone is agreement for Common Names and Latin Names of birds while much desired by many, is just pie in the sky. Both the Sibley-Monroe 2003 and the Clement's 5 Ed. updated 2004 use the Common Name Grey Bushchat for S. ferrea (but spelled Gray Bushchat for the Clement's). You may have misread on the list. The Sibley-Monroe and the Clement's lists are basically equivalent as to authoritativeness. IMO, the Howard & Moore 3 Ed. 2003 is, at present, the definitive "opus magnus" now existing for a number of reasons and is starting to supplant the other two above-mentioned lists. Their listing for Saxicola ferrea gives the Common Name Grey Buschat. For Saxicola macrorhyncha, both the Sibley-Monroe and the Clement's lists use the name White-browed Bushchat, while the Howard and Moore call it Stoliczka's Bushchat.
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 15:47   #6
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Sorry, I meant White-browed Bushchat for S. macrorhyncha in Sibley-Monroe rather than Stoliczka's Bushchat. So Howard & Moore 3 Ed. 2003 is the definitive guide. I dont suppose its available for download like the Sibley-Monroe checklist?

So would this be the female S. ferrea? - they were in the same bush:
http://www.kashmirnetwork.com/birds/03.jpg
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Last edited by CyberDoc : Sunday 1st August 2004 at 15:51. Reason: to add link
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 16:14   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberDoc
Sorry, I meant White-browed Bushchat for S. macrorhyncha in Sibley-Monroe rather than Stoliczka's Bushchat. So Howard & Moore 3 Ed. 2003 is the definitive guide. I dont suppose its available for download like the Sibley-Monroe checklist?

So would this be the female S. ferrea? - they were in the same bush:
http://www.kashmirnetwork.com/birds/03.jpg
Hi Cyber,

Unfortunately H&M isn't available on the net, sad as that is the best way these days to get information across.

The new bird is a Grey Bushchat, but (from the mottled mantle and broad buff greater covert bar) a recently fledged juvenile, not necessarily female.

Michael
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 18:51   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Frankis
Hi Cyber,

Unfortunately H&M isn't available on the net, sad as that is the best way these days to get information across.

The new bird is a Grey Bushchat, but (from the mottled mantle and broad buff greater covert bar) a recently fledged juvenile, not necessarily female.

Michael
Cyber and Michael,
As soon as I finish off updating and generating the insular lists for the Philippines for WBCP I intend to put the HM into Excel format including the subspecies, but since I do all this stuff in my spare time we're probably talking about December or January depending on how much time I give to it.
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 19:01   #9
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Thumbs up

I much prefer (for obvious reason) the OBC annotated checklist of the birds of the oriental region by Inskipp, Duckworth and Lindsay for use in the Orient.

meticulously researched, extremely well-referenced, includes alternative names and taxonomic status. And grammar used to decide on English names is thoroughly explained by Tim Inskipp in the first part of the list.....the industry standard
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 20:09   #10
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Tim,
Is that the same that can be downloaded from the OBC site? To my chagrin, I downloaded it and never really looked at it and know little of it other than I think it is based more or less on the SM with some extra input from Birdlife Int. and Nigel Collar.
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 20:22   #11
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"So Howard & Moore 3 Ed. 2003 is the definitive guide."

Mmmm. I would not jump to that conclusion just yet.
I believe that there may be over 1000 corrections to be made to this publication.


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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 20:30   #12
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Hi Steve
yes it's on the website but without annotation and references:

This 294-page book provides a complete checklist of Oriental birds including every species recorded in the region from Pakistan in the west, east to China and south to Wallacea (Indonesia). Species limits were determined according to the latest taxonomic research and by extensive reference to original bibliographic sources. The book contents include an introduction, a listing of 2,586 species with details of taxonomic history for many, a reference section of more than 800 titles, and a full index.

The Checklist is intended to be a valuable reference for all scientists, conservationists and birdwatchers interested in Oriental ornithology and aims to bring some stability to the taxonomy and nomenclature of Oriental Birds. The full publication is available from OBC sales.
OBC checklist updated July 2001
The basic checklist has been updated by Tim Inskipp to take into account recent additions and taxonomic changes, as well as those species found within the new geographical limits covered by the OBC since its expansion in 2000 to include Japan, Korea, Mongolia and Russia (E of 90E).


The updated basic OBC checklist, without annotations and references, can be downloaded from this page http://www.orientalbirdclub.org/publ...cchecklist.txt
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 20:33   #13
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Hi Malky,
Mine is just an opinion and I know that anytime someone hazards this type of assertion that there are always divided camps. Let me put it in this way, to now, it is the most serious attempt, again in my opinion, to review and provide the most complete annotation possible in existance in this moment of time. All lists are of course works that are, and should be, constantly amended as new and better information is evaluated and integrated. Mind you we are talking here about world lists and not regional lists such as that mentioned by Tim. Your point is, however, well taken and regardless of personal preferences it is better to have at least a nodding familiarity with a number of lists, world and regional, unfortunately!

Thanks Tim,
I may just have to buy it and give it a good read.
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Last edited by cuckooroller : Sunday 1st August 2004 at 20:37.
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Old Sunday 1st August 2004, 20:53   #14
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Hi Malky,
Mine is just an opinion and I know that anytime someone hazards this type of assertion that there are always divided camps. Your point is, however, well taken and regardless of personal preferences it is better to have at least a nodding familiarity with a number of lists, world and regional, unfortunately!

Steve, I am not knocking the book, but am only raising the status of the levels of corrections which seem to have been identified so far, (25th March 2004) will have to be rectified in a further edition. I realise that this is a publication covering a huge aspect of knowledge within the range of bird information, but that being said, the claim that this "is the definitive guide" seems to be misplaced at the moment, in regards to 100% accuracy. I have no doubt that as time goes by, the accuracy will rise, but considering the ongoing changes in taxonomy etc, will we ever get a publication that is 100% accurate. I doubt it.
If one looks at some of the errors, then basic mistakes seem to have been made in the 2003 edition.

Regards

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Old Monday 2nd August 2004, 00:38   #15
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Malky,
You mentioned a date (25th March 2004) and I am presuming that you have seen some type of report regarding the corrections to be apported to this volume. I have been trying to discover without much success where to go to find the corrections for the HM. I had heard that a web-site for the corrections was being contemplated in much the same guise as that done by Ibis Publications for the Clement's list but as yet have seen nothing concrete in this sense. Supposedly to now the only avenue would seem to be to subscribe to Zoologische Verhanderlingen which would seem to be the conduit chosen by Edward Dickinson for disseminating these corrections. Do you have any further information about where to find these corrections other than the possibilities that I just mentioned?
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Old Monday 2nd August 2004, 19:42   #16
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Supposedly to now the only avenue would seem to be to subscribe to Zoologische Verhanderlingen which would seem to be the conduit chosen by Edward Dickinson for disseminating these corrections. Do you have any further information about where to find these corrections other than the possibilities that I just mentioned?

Steve, as per above, the link for the Normand David/Edward Dickinson list of corrections is :-

http://www.naturalis.nl/sites/natura...enda%202.1.pdf

Quite a lot of these are simple spelling mistakes, but others aren't. There are 37 pages in "pdf" format.
I am using Adobe 6, and it works no problem. I don't know about earlier editions of Adobe and if the link works with them.

Best regards

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Old Monday 2nd August 2004, 20:03   #17
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Malky,
Thank You! It is very much appreciated.
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