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Chalybura urochrysia isaurae

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Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 12:27   #1
Taphrospilus
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Chalybura urochrysia isaurae

I am wondering about OD Chalybura urochrysia isaurae. Maybe no question that this hummingbird is dedicated to Élisabeth Isaure Guéneau de Montbeillard Baronesse de La Fresnaye (18??–1893). My question is more born about 1810 or 1802 as claimed in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds?

Maybe there is a dedication to Frédéric de Lafresnaye first wife as well? What was her name apart form de Bazoches?

Even in this obituary https://books.google.com/books?id=UWFJAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA140 not the full name of the first wife.

From here we can see:

Quote:
à Élisabeth-Isaure Guéneau de Montbéliard, †au château de la Fresnaye le 20 novembre 1893, dont cinq enfants:
1 Louise-Alexandrine , † le 25 novembre 1841 : mariée le 28 mai 1838 à Louis Guillaume-Léonce Boistard de Glanville;
2 Noël-François-Henri, qui suivra ;
3 Noël- Aimé-Georges-Ferdinand, officier de cavalerie , kte , né en 1837 , † au château de la Fresnaye le 22 juillet 1875 ; marié en 1863 à Henriette - Marie-Françoise de Félix du Muy , seur de la baronne ci-après , dont trois enfants...

Last edited by Taphrospilus : Tuesday 4th August 2020 at 15:37.
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Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 18:25   #2
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Martin, I don't know who she was (never heard of her before), but ...if you look at yet another Geneanet page (here) you find a Élisabeth Isaure Guéneau de Montbéliard, Baronesse de La Fresnaye, who died 16 November 1893, at Falaise, Calvados, Normandie (somewhat different to the Château de la Fresnaye, le 20 novembre 1893 ?!) ... though, with the additional info:
Quote:
• Born in June 1802 - Seigny, Côte-d'Or, Bourgogne-Franche-Comté, France
Maybe a Birth record is possible to find in "Seigny, Côte-d'Or ...", who knows?

Or, maybe the name of this guy, probably her grandfather (according to the Family Tree, in your Geneanet page), can help (in some way): "Philibert Guéneau de Montbeillard (1720-1785), naturaliste" (mentioned here, in foot-note), in reference to "Le fils de M. Guéneau de Montbéliard". And; note the different spellings of the Surname?

Good luck finding her Birth.

/B
--

Last edited by Calalp : Wednesday 5th August 2020 at 09:36. Reason: typo
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Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 19:04   #3
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She should be in here https://archives.cotedor.fr/v2/ad21/...4&id=534056422 p. 2 of 6. But she isn't. And note the castle is in Falaise.
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Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 19:19   #4
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Born 21 June 1802 - Seigny, 21150, Côte-d'Or, Bourgogne, FRANCE

According to this

As her parents were married in 1799 this makes sense. One can assume they left Paris to avoid the Consulate period.

Provincial records should confirm - they are not on the Ancestry system.

P
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Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 20:46   #5
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In "Collection Leroy (Buffon)" in Archives départementales de la Côte-d'Or (here) we find the following (my blue):
Quote:
Mme de La Fresnaye (Mlle Isaure de Montbeillard), ma cousine ...

Quote:
5- Lettre de Mme la baronne de la Fresnaye. [Vers 1878 ? ][Fournit des renseignements sur sa famille. Le fils de Philibert Guéneau de Montbeillard a eu un seul enfant, François (dit Fin-Fin) qui eut lui-même 3 enfants : François-Léon (1800-1852), François-Roger (1813-marié en 1850 avec Mlle de Belle Isle, et père de Guy), Elisabeth-Isaure(1802-) mariée en 1827 à Noël-Frédéric-Armand, baron de La Fresnaye, mort en 1861 ornithologue, dont elle eut six enfants. ...

To me it does look like she was born in 1802.

However, no original Record/s found, of any certain date (nor month).

Björn

PS. Also see this book Correspondance de Buffon de 1729 a 1788 ... (vol. 1, Edition 2), where we find her mentioned several times; on p.159 as: "Mme la baronne de La Fresnaye, née Isaure de Montbeillard" (similar on p.183), and on p.420: "Les deux autres vivants: François-Roger, né en 1813, intendant militaire, et Élisabeth-Isaure de Montbeillard, née en 1802, mariée, en 1827, à Noël-Frédéric-Armand, baron de La Fresnaye, ornithologiste distingué.
--

Last edited by Calalp : Tuesday 4th August 2020 at 21:27. Reason: PS.
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Old Tuesday 4th August 2020, 21:27   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PScofield View Post
Born 21 June 1802 - Seigny, 21150, Côte-d'Or, Bourgogne, FRANCE

According to this

As her parents were married in 1799 this makes sense. One can assume they left Paris to avoid the Consulate period.

Provincial records should confirm - they are not on the Ancestry system.

P
Leads us to Maximilienne Caroline LABBÉ de BAZOCHES Born 10 June 1786 - Falaise, 14700, Calvados, Basse-Normandie, FRANCE and her son Louise Alexinne Emmanuelle Hermanne ANDRÉ de LA FRESNAYE 1818-1841 (maybe she died at his birth?)

I might have to convert 21 June 1802 into French Republican calendar to find her.

So it should be http://193.48.79.11/archives/Documen...epublicain.pdf 2. Messidor année X, which is http://www.archinoe.net/v2/ad21/visu...1&id=522265265 p. 147 of 825

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Old Thursday 6th August 2020, 06:34   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
In "Collection Leroy (Buffon)" in Archives départementales de la Côte-d'Or (here) we find the following (my blue):


To me it does look like she was born in 1802.

And OD do not forget...

Quote:
The specific name isaurae was suggested to me by my late highly valued friend the Prince Charles Bonaparte, who wished thus to convey a compliment to Madame la Baronne de la Fresnaye, the nice of Montbeillard, the able coadjutor of the celebrated Buffon.
I ask myself if Lafresnayes last name isn't in fact André de Lafresnaye?

Last edited by Taphrospilus : Thursday 6th August 2020 at 09:54.
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Old Thursday 6th August 2020, 11:07   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
...
I ask myself if Lafresnayes last name isn't in fact André de Lafresnaye?
The spelling/writing; "La Fresnaye" versus "Lafresnaye", earlier dealt with here (back in 2014), also see; here, here, here, and here.

Zoonomen: "Lafresnaye, Frédéric (Armand André) de 1783-1861, also as La Fresnaye"

BHL: "Lafresnaye, Frédéric, baron de, 1783-1861" (here)

Richmond Index/Cards use "Lafresnaye" (for example) here (257 cards with that certain spelling)

(French) Wikipedia (here) ... and onwards.

Take your pick.

/B
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Old Thursday 6th August 2020, 12:19   #9
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I think you misunderstood my comment. I am not asking about the spelling but more if André de is part of his last name. All family members have André de in their name.
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Old Thursday 6th August 2020, 15:28   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
I think you misunderstood my comment. ...
That I did.

See Base Léonore; here, or here. And, note that we (for some reason) find the entries/documents for the "patronyme" ANDRE DE LA FRESNAYE, listed below both A (here, as; ditto), and L (here), as; LA FRESNAYE ... !?

If true (that the André de ... part truly belong in his/their Surname), there's a lot (and I mean a LOT), of changes to be done, in hundreds, if not thousands of texts (my MS included).

Let's wait to see what our friends (with better understanding of French, and French traditions) has to say.

Björn

PS. Though, I doubt that ICZN is keen on changing today's "Lafresnaye" into "André de Lafresnaye" ...
--

Last edited by Calalp : Friday 7th August 2020 at 09:53. Reason: added links
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Old Thursday 6th August 2020, 16:05   #11
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But see also https://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/l...e/idc/660810/#
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Old Thursday 6th August 2020, 16:51   #12
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Martin, beware; here and here ...

Don't push your luck.

/B

PS. I have no idea if those opinions are well-founded, or not. But they could be.
"Heraldry" is big business (in the shadowy parts of internet).
-

Last edited by Calalp : Thursday 6th August 2020 at 17:20. Reason: PS.
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