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Common or Thrush Nightingale?

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Old Saturday 12th September 2020, 18:12   #1
Orvany24
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Common or Thrush Nightingale?

Israel, today, No better pics unfortunately.

Thanks in advance.

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Old Saturday 12th September 2020, 18:20   #2
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Going by the wing details in Collins Bird Guide, relatively long P1 and 7 primary tips countable, I'll go for Common.
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Old Saturday 12th September 2020, 18:28   #3
Orvany24
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Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
Going by the wing details in Collins Bird Guide, relatively long P1 and 7 primary tips countable, I'll go for Common.
Thanks, Nutcracker.

How about the tone of the plumage? Common NG should have warmer brown tones - is that visible in the photos?
Unfortunately, I struggle with distinguishing close colors and tones.
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Old Saturday 12th September 2020, 18:42   #4
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Originally Posted by Orvany24 View Post
Thanks, Nutcracker.

How about the tone of the plumage? Common NG should have warmer brown tones - is that visible in the photos?
Unfortunately, I struggle with distinguishing close colors and tones.
Some of the eastern races aren't such a warm brown colour as the ones we see in western Europe.
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Old Saturday 12th September 2020, 19:20   #5
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Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
Going by the wing details in Collins Bird Guide, relatively long P1 and 7 primary tips countable, I'll go for Common.
Undertail is better for Thrush, there are 'spots' but not that obvious, unless it's just the way the feathers are laid?

I also think that the red of the tail, would extend further on to the lower back in Common?
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Old Saturday 12th September 2020, 20:58   #6
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Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Undertail is better for Thrush, there are 'spots' but not that obvious, unless it's just the way the feathers are laid?

I also think that the red of the tail, would extend further on to the lower back in Common?
I don't have first hand knowledge of thrush, but again going by Collins, I'd suggest the undertail matches common better in that plate: similarly, I think rump is browner in thrush than here
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Old Saturday 12th September 2020, 23:33   #7
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Appears to have 8 primary tips visible, buff barring to the UTC’s also hint of a lateral throat stripe?, believe TN is a better candidate.

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Old Saturday 12th September 2020, 23:41   #8
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Appears to have 8 primary tips visible, buff barring to the UTC’s also hint of a lateral throat stripe?, believe TN is a better candidate.

Cheers
Two different people, two different counts. One of you should post an annotated image (I counted 7 but didn't do it very forensically). I was especially unclear about how to interpret the position of 1st primary in these images
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 00:48   #9
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Originally Posted by THE_FERN View Post
Two different people, two different counts. One of you should post an annotated image (I counted 7 but didn't do it very forensically). I was especially unclear about how to interpret the position of 1st primary in these images
Same here!
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 06:12   #10
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Originally Posted by THE_FERN View Post
I don't have first hand knowledge of thrush, but again going by Collins, I'd suggest the undertail matches common better in that plate: similarly, I think rump is browner in thrush than here
So you don't see any dark, what 'Collins' calls 'spots on the undertail sides at all?
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 08:01   #11
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8 visible primary tips visible beyond the tertials, (translucent p3 suggesting short p2?) faint spots (1cy) on undertail coverts, malar streaking on throat (cf to Common), very brown grey bird with rufous tail and two tone alula (I can’t see p1), make this a Thrush Nightingale.
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 08:39   #12
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8 visible primary tips visible beyond the tertials, (translucent p3 suggesting short p2?) faint spots (1cy) on undertail coverts, malar streaking on throat (cf to Common), very brown grey bird with rufous tail and two tone alula (I can’t see p1), make this a Thrush Nightingale.
Forensic as usual Deb though I struggle to see malar streaking, thanks.
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 12:29   #13
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Hello Andy, I see what appears a malar streak, too (streaking, when I as a non native speaker, interpret this correct, consists of multiple streaks)
Please compare this Trush Nightingale with a prominent (and broad) malar streak: https://flic.kr/p/22q59jr (11.05.2016, NE-Germany), all pictures:https://flic.kr/s/aHsmbGhwT2 . An "ID-book"-Trush Nightingale has a narrower one, the OP bird is quite typical in this respect.

Also, the pattern of the undertail-coverts seems good for Thrush Nightingale.

I hesitate to ID this bird, as I have no experience with eastern ssp of Common Nightingale and its nearly impossible to judge pattern and colour of breast and lower throat area. Here is Common Nightingale with a darker than normal breast, but this area is uniform and unpatternd (should be streaked or at least with some cloudy smuding in Thrush Nightingale): https://flic.kr/s/aHsmNXnRif (10.05.2020, NE-Germany). Or this bird, that is darker and colder than a normal Common Nightingale: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmQJdA4Q (13.04.2020, SW-Germany ), with many thanks to Christian Stohl, Julia Bayer and Heino Hauf for help with identification of this bird.

Conclusion? Its one of those threads that I learn from, but I hope, my post is still an usefull contribution. And I agree with all, that picture quality might prevent a safe ID (for example, is the pattern of the undertail-coverts real or an artefact?)

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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 12:38   #14
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Originally Posted by Alexander Stöhr View Post
Hello Andy, I see what appears a malar streak, too (streaking, when I as a non native speaker, interpret this correct, consists of multiple streaks ...And I agree with all, that picture quality might prevent a safe ID (for example, is the pattern of the undertail-coverts real or an artefact?)
I meant ‘streak’ as in singular in this case obviously.

Pedantry aside - this was not my conclusion - so not ‘all’ agree it can not be identified (perhaps as a non-native speaker ‘all’ means something different )
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 13:20   #15
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Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
I meant ‘streak’ as in singular in this case obviously.

Pedantry aside - this was not my conclusion - so not ‘all’ agree it can not be identified (perhaps as a non-native speaker ‘all’ means something different )
Then I understood the answers wrong. Sorry from a non native speaker!
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 13:31   #16
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Originally Posted by Alexander Stöhr View Post
Then I understood the answers wrong. Sorry from a non native speaker!
Quote:
8 visible primary tips visible beyond the tertials, (translucent p3 suggesting short p2?) faint spots (1cy) on undertail coverts, malar streaking on throat (cf to Common), very brown grey bird with rufous tail and two tone alula (I can’t see p1), make this a Thrush Nightingale.
No worries - not sure how else it can be phrased though to assist with comprehension ... perhaps you would use another phrase for ‘’makes this’’ or maybe my posts are harder in general for a ‘non-native’ speaker to understand than other English posts? - I am ‘always eager to learn from others’ (to borrow a favourite phrase from you) so welcome any suggestions as to how I can modify my language.
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 13:48   #17
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I only post this because there's been a lot of discussion about this, and because the images are not, well, perfect:

I think the best way to clarify thinking and communicate interpretation would be to post an annotated image indicating (for example) which we think the primary tips are on this image, where we think the throat streak is (I can't see one but doesn't mean it's not there) etc. That way, we can focus on whether we agree with the analysis of the photo or not and then move on to its interpretation.

I think there's a majority view from those who know the species that this is thrush nightingale but I for one would find this generally useful...
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Old Sunday 13th September 2020, 20:31   #18
Alexander Stöhr
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Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
No worries - not sure how else it can be phrased though to assist with comprehension ... perhaps you would use another phrase for ‘’makes this’’ or maybe my posts are harder in general for a ‘non-native’ speaker to understand than other English posts? - I am ‘always eager to learn from others’ (to borrow a favourite phrase from you) so welcome any suggestions as to how I can modify my language.
Sorry Deb, when reading your message with bold words again, it is now clear, that you have Id this bird as a Trush Nightingale.

More, I think, the idea from The Fern is good!
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