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September Moths

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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 16:50   #101
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A few more pics - Oak Nycteoline, Lunar Underwing, L-album Wainscot (several in September), Nutmeg & Box-tree Moth (several in September).
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 16:53   #102
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Finally a dark Common Marbled Carpet (that got a careful check of the hindwings!), Pine Carpet, Grey Pine Carpet (a tricky slightly worn/plain one), Meal Moth & Prays ruficeps.
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 17:11   #103
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Lowest catch for ages, just 27 of 8 species, with no micros at all. Highlight was Light Emerald NFY, plus a latish Snout.

Being very urban I tend not to trap unless the forecast temperature is remaining above 11 or 12 C, so won't be doing much more this year.

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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 17:49   #104
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Andy

Thanks for posting these. Very informative. It just goes to show that you need a classic.

All the best
That's just it Paul, no guarantees.
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 18:44   #105
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Last night saw 123 of 14 macros, plus 1 Light Brown Apple Moth.

37 Setaceous Hebrew Character, 35 LYU, 26 Sq Spot Rustic.

Highlights were Pink-barred Sallow (nice wee beastie!) NFG , 3 Lunar Underwing and 2 Silver Y (first for September)
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 18:48   #106
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Nice pics Paul. Do you happen to have an image of the 'clinching feature' abdomen hairs (or a link) for the Radford's?

Some good moths there . Are you close to the coast/prime habitat? I assume your mates garden must be!
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 19:10   #107
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Finally a dark Common Marbled Carpet (that got a careful check of the hindwings!), Pine Carpet, Grey Pine Carpet (a tricky slightly worn/plain one), Meal Moth & Prays ruficeps.
Checking for Dark Marbled Paul?

Here's one from Russia that I've tentatively got as DMC, what do you think?
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 19:20   #108
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Nice pics Paul. Do you happen to have an image of the 'clinching feature' abdomen hairs (or a link) for the Radford's?

Some good moths there . Are you close to the coast/prime habitat? I assume your mates garden must be!
He is closer to the coast than me. I am on the edge of town next to a rhine and about 400 yards from the Bristol Channel. A link here:-

https://britishlepidoptera.weebly.co...-shoulder.html

I'll try and get an image of Clancy.

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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 19:22   #109
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He is closer to the coast than me. I am on the edge of town next to a rhine and about 400 yards from the Bristol Channel. A link here:-

https://britishlepidoptera.weebly.co...-shoulder.html

I'll try and get an image of Clancy.

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Paul, has global warming re-routed the Rhine through Bristol
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 19:24   #110
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Checking for Dark Marbled Paul?

Here's one from Russia that I've tentatively got as DMC, what do you think?
Yes. I thought that it was convincing at first but ended up on Common Marbled Carpet. I would say Common Marbled for yours too on the basis that the projection is not deep enough. I'll try and dig out my garden Dark Marbled Carpet pic. I've had two. It will be interesting to check them with hindsight.....

All the best
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 19:25   #111
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Paul, has global warming re-routed the Rhine through Bristol
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 20:38   #112
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Dan

I attach a photo of the plate from Clancy which is an excellent reference and has Flame Shoulder and Radford's Flame Shoulder specimens side by side. Also two pics of our moth showing the abdomen and hairs. I kept it so someone could twitch it but sadly it expired in the fridge which was a shame as the county recorder had just confirmed that he was happy to accept on the photos.

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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 20:46   #113
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Andy

My two garden Dark Marbled Carpets were 8 August 2011 and 22 August 2018 and having revisited my photos, I remain happy with both records.

Pic one -2011 record - upperside forewing
Pic two - 2011 record - underside forewing
Pic three - 2011 record - underside hindwing
Pic four - 2018 record - upperside forewing
Pic five - underside forewing

It is all about the depth of the point on the postmedian line being less rounded and on the hindwing this is a v shape on the underside. Subtle but I remain happy.

https://britishlepidoptera.weebly.com/dysstroma.html

All the best

Paul
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 20:48   #114
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In contrast, this year's dark Common Marbled Carpet has a more rounded less pointed postmedian line and a more U shaped underside to the hindwing.

All the best

Paul
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Old Saturday 19th September 2020, 21:42   #115
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Quote:
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Andy

My two garden Dark Marbled Carpets were 8 August 2011 and 22 August 2018 and having revisited my photos, I remain happy with both records.

Pic one -2011 record - upperside forewing
Pic two - 2011 record - underside forewing
Pic three - 2011 record - underside hindwing
Pic four - 2018 record - upperside forewing
Pic five - underside forewing

It is all about the depth of the point on the postmedian line being less rounded and on the hindwing this is a v shape on the underside. Subtle but I remain happy.

https://britishlepidoptera.weebly.com/dysstroma.html

All the best

Paul

Paul,
I thought mine looked pretty good as per waring, I thought that the angle of the rear edge of the dark, crossband, comes down from the leading edge of the wing in more of a curve in Common and in Dark, it's almost a right angle?

The depth of the 'W' in that same crossband is also deeper?
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Old Sunday 20th September 2020, 07:50   #116
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Paul,
I thought mine looked pretty good as per waring, I thought that the angle of the rear edge of the dark, crossband, comes down from the leading edge of the wing in more of a curve in Common and in Dark, it's almost a right angle?

The depth of the 'W' in that same crossband is also deeper?
You could well be right Andy. I suspect the variability of Common Marbled Carpet is the challenge. I was really thrown with the underside of the hindwing on mine this year making it Common Marbled. Maybe that led me to being too negative. I'll look later & try & compare the four moths - yours against my three. It will be a useful exercise.

Stay safe.
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Old Sunday 20th September 2020, 10:57   #117
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19/09. First trap for a bit (did a Scaly Cricket evening on Chesil on Friday). Over 4 hours I had 14 moths of 9 species between two traps (more in actinic than MV). New for the garden were singles of Black Rustic and Beaded Chestnut. First Common Marbled Carpet for a long time. The rest the usual.
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Old Sunday 20th September 2020, 11:56   #118
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19/09. First trap for a bit (did a Scaly Cricket evening on Chesil on Friday). Over 4 hours I had 14 moths of 9 species between two traps (more in actinic than MV). New for the garden were singles of Black Rustic and Beaded Chestnut. First Common Marbled Carpet for a long time. The rest the usual.
Images of cricketers with eczema spring to mind!
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Old Sunday 20th September 2020, 17:03   #119
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132 of 25 macros, plus another 6 of 5 micros last night.

Looks like 6 Large Ranunculus, 1 Feathered Ranunculus and 1 Black-banded (Nationally Scarce A and unusual away from the coast). Also Silver Y, 2 Dark Sword Grass, Rush Veneer and 2 Diamondback Moths, as well as a nice range of the usual stuff.

Bumped into a Vestal whilst cutting Blackthorn at nearby Treverva this afternoon too.

Unless I'm mistaken -

Pic 1 left to right; Large Ranunculus, Feathered Ranunculus f, Black-banded m
Pic 2 Black-banded
Pic 3 Black-banded hindwing
Pic 4 Diamondback
Pic 5 Rush Veneer
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Old Sunday 20th September 2020, 17:58   #120
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Dan

I attach a photo of the plate from Clancy which is an excellent reference and has Flame Shoulder and Radford's Flame Shoulder specimens side by side. Also two pics of our moth showing the abdomen and hairs. I kept it so someone could twitch it but sadly it expired in the fridge which was a shame as the county recorder had just confirmed that he was happy to accept on the photos.

All the best

Paul
Thanks Paul.

Do I understand that 835 is Flame Shoulder and 836 is Radford's Flame Shoulder? And we are talking about a paler (and with white hairs) on the dorsal surface of the abdomen (ie only visible by lifting the wings away) as opposed to the ventral surface (ie what you would see from looking underneath in a clear pot? Is there a difference between the two species at a glance looking at the underside of a moth in a clear pot?

Apologies for the questioning - I have seen wordy descriptions (some conflicting) in various resources for this elsewhere!

(Back in the summer when I was getting 10+ Flame Shoulders I should have analysed them better (including some long-winged individuals) to see variation in Flame Shoulder!!)

Cheers.
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Old Sunday 20th September 2020, 18:09   #121
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Thanks Paul.

Do I understand that 835 is Flame Shoulder and 836 is Radford's Flame Shoulder? And we are talking about a paler (and with white hairs) on the dorsal surface of the abdomen (ie only visible by lifting the wings away) as opposed to the ventral surface (ie what you would see from looking underneath in a clear pot? Is there a difference between the two species at a glance looking at the underside of a moth in a clear pot?

Apologies for the questioning - I have seen wordy descriptions (some conflicting) in various resources for this elsewhere!

(Back in the summer when I was getting 10+ Flame Shoulders I should have analysed them better (including some long-winged individuals) to see variation in Flame Shoulder!!)

Cheers.
Spot on. Only look in detail at moths with a long black streak which goes past the lower oval. Rare in Flame Shoulder. It took me two days to see the hairs on my friend's moth to confirm it. When he first brought it round, it was flapping away. If I had only known to look then, it wouldn't have taken so long to confirm it.... Radford's records have been autumn things to date though it is double-brooded on the continent.

All the best
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Old Sunday 20th September 2020, 18:16   #122
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Spot on. Only look in detail at moths with a long black streak which goes past the lower oval. Rare in Flame Shoulder. It took me two days to see the hairs on my friend's moth to confirm it. When he first brought it round, it was flapping away. If I had only known to look then, it wouldn't have taken so long to confirm it.... Radford's records have been autumn things to date though it is double-brooded on the continent.
Cool, ta. There have been two claimed Radford's on the county facebook group recently (both of which I think are Flames personally ;-) ). Someone did mention they may well come up earlier in the summer but much more likely to get overlooked.
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Old Sunday 20th September 2020, 18:23   #123
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Some fascinating discussions on tricky species pairs going on here, all very educational and much appreciated. The Marbled Carpets are particularly relevant, because up here at the moment it's all about the Carpets. Last night, while attending the trap before turning in, I notched up 6 Common Marbled, 2 Garden a Green and a Red-green (I checked Autumn Green for that last one, but pretty sure it's a Red-green). This morning all I had to add to that was a Dusky Thorn sitting on top of the trap and a single Frosted Orange in it. Not even any Underwings!
With Common Marbled Carpet my second most numerous moth up here this year I have been checking under the wings of as many as possible, but nothing resembling Dark Marbled so far; when the ticks start drying up I will redouble my efforts on that score!
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Old Sunday 20th September 2020, 19:50   #124
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Yes, we're hoping to buy some carpets in the next few weeks (can't say new carpets as we didn't have any old ones to start with). Looking at various beige/off-whites. On the Common/Dark Marbled Carpet front, 4 CMCs last night, twice as many as any previous occasion. Really surprised to hear DMCs are rare as Waring and Townsend states they are common ... think I need to check out their status in Cornwall tbh ...

EDIT: Not Cornwall, but Norfolk as an example on the excellent Norfolkmoths site -

https://www.norfolkmoths.co.uk/index...0.097&next=yes
https://www.norfolkmoths.co.uk/index...0.098&prev=yes

Comparing annual records, 2 thirds of the way down central section - generally CMC appears to be 1000+ records pa, DMC single figures pa

'Common' status in W&T presumably refers to the overall number of squares they have been recorded in on a national basis.
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Old Monday 21st September 2020, 06:52   #125
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My pathetic overnight total of four moths, included a Brimstone Moth which is my latest record for the species by a whole month.
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