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Italian Orchid i.d. puzzles - one for the experts

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Old Monday 9th May 2005, 15:43   #1
Ghostly Vision
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Italian Orchid i.d. puzzles - one for the experts

Hi all,

Attached are some photos taken in Northern Italy in the last two weeks. Some I have titled according to my educated guesses, others I have simply left at genus level. Perhaps any of you out there who are more experienced than me could pin them down, or confirm the ones I have labelled specifically?

All comment welcome.

There are four added tot his post, with another three to follow.

TIA

GV
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Last edited by Ghostly Vision : Monday 9th May 2005 at 15:45.
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Old Monday 9th May 2005, 15:45   #2
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Here are the other three, all Serapias.

GV
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Old Monday 9th May 2005, 15:59   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision
Hi all,

Attached are some photos taken in Northern Italy in the last two weeks. Some I have titled according to my educated guesses, others I have simply left at genus level. Perhaps any of you out there who are more experienced than me could pin them down, or confirm the ones I have labelled specifically?

All comment welcome.

There are four added tot his post, with another three to follow.

TIA

GV
I'm definitely not more experienced than you, but I'd certainly go with provincialis for #4. The others I'll need to look at my books for!

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Old Monday 9th May 2005, 19:28   #4
black52bird
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Orchid ID

Dear Ghostly Vision

I would suggest the following

First post:

1) Dactyorhiza romana (as you said)
2) member of the Ophrys arachnitiformis group
3) Member of the Ophrys mammosa groups
4) Orchis pallens (not provincialis - no spots, deeper yellow, closer flowers)

Second post

1) Serapias lingua
2) S. ?? - can't see clearly enough
3) Serapias neglecta

If you have other photos of the 2 Ophrys and the middle Serapias, I might be able to get closer for you. Also, it would help enormously to know exactly where you took the photos because of regional variation etc. I spent 14 years doing orchids in northern Italy and have many specialist local books (in Italian) which I can use to get you good IDs.

Best

David
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Old Tuesday 10th May 2005, 09:05   #5
Ghostly Vision
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Thanks David - most informative. May I take your i.d.'s one at a time?

1 thanks
2 By which, do you mean sphegodes? This is what it was with, and the plant was in the Monte Pisani, between Pisa and Lucca. I had considered tyrrhena for this one given the location and lip pattern. Don't have a better picture.
3 Didn't think mammosa occurred in Italy? This was photographed on Monte Argentario in Toscana, and was with Crabonifera and sphegodes (though not side-by-side, in the same zone). I add pictures below.
4 I attach another picture showing the spots on the lip. This was a common roadside plant above Subiaco in the Abruzzo.

The Serapias:

1 & 3 - pretty much what I thought, but interested to know why not cordigera and vormeracea (though I believe both of these flower later, although they occur at the site). These were taken in the Monte Pisani NE of Pisa.

2 - Don't have a better picture, taken in the Monte Pisani, lots of S. neglecta around, also lingua and parviflora. It was a big tall plant, about 30-50 cm (couldn't get close to it, behind a fence), but not next to any other plants. I do suspect neglecta for this one.

Thanks again for your help, and I look forward to your comments

All the best

GV
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Last edited by Ghostly Vision : Tuesday 10th May 2005 at 13:30.
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Old Tuesday 10th May 2005, 19:38   #6
black52bird
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Italian Orchids again

Dear GV

Thanks for the infor and additional photos.

OK - I can see the O. pallens is incorrect with this new photo and you were right in the first place with O. provincialis; just that the yellow looks so intense and the flowering head so dense, and spots invisible!! Apologies! The problem of identifying from photos!!

The Ophrys spp. are very hard work.
Pic 2, which I suggested O. arachnitiformis group, heading towards O. tyrrhena, which you considered. Although the sepals are distinctly greenish, which is rare for that sp.. On the other hand, the lip patterning certainly isn't good for pure O. sphegodes. I know that area well, having worked it for one whole year, and there are so many hybrids it's a nightmare at times.
Pic 3 I suggested the Ophrys mammosa group, thinking rather in the O. ferrum-equinum, but forgetting its eastern Med distribution when I wrote. I have to say that, on viewing the further 2 phics, I am incling now more towards the Ophrys argolica group, and perhaps O. crabonifera, which is certainly present in the area.

I'll have to answer about the Serapias separately, because I've forgotten what you said, and have never worked out how to flip back to a previous thread without losing what one's written yet!!

Best

David
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Old Tuesday 10th May 2005, 19:50   #7
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Serapias answers!!

Dear GV

Further to my previous reply:

1) not Serapias vomeracea because the sp. has very long pointed bracts which are very characteristic.
2) not S. cordigera because of colour. S. neglecta is always (!dangerous word!) that kind of pink, whereas S. cordigera is a kind of dark 'recently dried blood' colour.
Plus one or two other things, but those are the 'jizz' features I went on.

Very best

David
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Old Wednesday 11th May 2005, 15:09   #8
Ghostly Vision
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Cheers David, magnificent answers as before.

The provincialis pic was a little confusing I admit, and not intended to trick - thought a whole plant might be more useful than one inflorescence.

The pic3 Ophrys was certainly in an area where there were a lot of crabonifera, but I didn't think that species was quite so variable (though no previous experience). I was leaning towards fuciflora, to be honest, or maybe even a fuciflora/sphegodes hybrid. Argicola doesn't occur in Italy according to my book, unless it is associated with another species/group.

It does go to show how variable these Ophrys are, and recent news on the taxonomy of this group seems to indicate scientific thinking is leaning back solidly towards fewer species (which would make sense I think).

The possible tyrrhena could well be a hybrid, but sphegodes x what? The only other Ophrys I found there was bombyliflora, though maybe there are later or earlier ones that I didn't see. But surely a hybrid would have to occur between species that flower at the same time?

I have also sent the photos to Bruno Barsella, who has promised to look at them for me (he's the one who gave me the site).

Will post his thinking and the possible conclusions on this forum.

Thanks also for the Serapias tips.

All the best

Sean

Last edited by Ghostly Vision : Wednesday 11th May 2005 at 15:12.
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