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"Swarovski 8.5x42 SV" or "Zeiss 8x42 HT" ? (1 Viewer)

Hello everyone,

i didn't have any purpose to post on that thread before reading Brock's theory and behaviour.
No person who is against developers, who tries to conserve animal/bird habitats, to educate people has the excuse of acting like that (throwing sticks and scaring a bird that kills for its survival). I wonder with what kind of logic?? a person decides that small birds and squirrels must live while the hawk must leave!

This is a egoistic, 100% anthropocentric, stupid, dangerous behaviour.

The fact that you are referring to more serious problems (habitat loss etc.) which are indeed the major world problem for wildlife, is just an excuse. It has nothing to do with the fact that you choose who is going to live in yours neighbouthood park and who is not (speaking about wildlife).
As for your experts that support the hawk trap and release in an other area, or the fact that they say it must attack to a human to do this, please tell them they should burn their degrees in their fireplace this winter..

It is so stupid to feed the hawk with a cooked chicken meat instead of allow it to hunt its self.

As for the Darwinism laws, you should know that human being is not following the nature's laws anymore. We don't belong and don't act like the rest of nature. But still that has nothing to do with behaviours and thoughts like Brock's.

I 've heard of people want to dissipate magpies, crows from their yards because they eat the fruits from the trees,
people who want to dissipate the crows and gulls from some parks in big towns because they make some problems,
farmers who want to kill the wolves and jackals because they kill their domestic animals (the latter very rarely does it) but it's a victim usually,

but all these people, although i disagree with them in many ways, they really have some reasons to hate/dislike these animals.
It's the first time i hear someone is trying to scare a hawk because it kills the birds and squirrels of the park, or the ONLY one woodpecker of the park!!!

It seems that some people have nothing else to do than just trying to find a reason to post a thread on BF, with their 'heroic' behaviour of saving the Only one Woodpecker, or writting about rolling ball in every thread.

Enough from me,

George

George

You summed up my gut feelings about Brock's 'theory of conservation' perfectly, although perhaps we should call it a theory of misguided compassion.

To talk about the pressures on wildlife and habitat in one second and then to become an additional pressure yourself by seeking to intervene is such a circular self-defeating argument that I am what we called gob-smacked.

Lee
 
Chosun

A deft and wide ranging commentary as usual, but my god what's this?

Only one emoticon???

Are you suffering from emoticon fatigue?

Or are you not really our dearly beloved Chosun Juan but someone else of the same name?


Lee
 
Lee, I went to town in the previous post with smilies. o:D Despite widespread disbelief from following posts, Brock saw fit to dig a deeper hole! :gn:

This is serious stuff! I just merely responded to Brock's one emoticon, in kind 3:) To be fair I cheated a bit by including lots of *cheeky* smilies 8-P

Just trying to cater to the audience - sorry for the Brock-like length of the post ........ if you dare to quote my post in full, then rainman may even see it and learn something :eek!: Fingers crossed, he'll then start a thread titled "My day as a Red-tailed Hawk, trying to eat a bl**dy meal in peace, and the vaguaries of Raptor Visual Distortion" ...... or some such! :-O


Chosun :gh:
 
In the case of the SV v HT, I for one would love to look through the SV and find myself struck by how superior it is to everything else, but it never happens.

Yes its sharp from edge to edge when held static and that is truly wonderful, but, for me even a slight movement induces something that feels "wrong" I can`t put my finger on it, and I do frequently see a very subtle blue purple fringing in different lighting situations.

The HT I found noticeably brighter and almost ca free, but without the sharp to the edge view, I`v yet to pan the HT.

At the risk of sounding like a Dinosaur I`m coming to realise I actually find the Porro view more to my taste and more relaxing for all day use.
 
In the case of the SV v HT, I for one would love to look through the SV and find myself struck by how superior it is to everything else, but it never happens.

Yes its sharp from edge to edge when held static and that is truly wonderful, but, for me even a slight movement induces something that feels "wrong" I can`t put my finger on it, and I do frequently see a very subtle blue purple fringing in different lighting situations.

The HT I found noticeably brighter and almost ca free, but without the sharp to the edge view, I`v yet to pan the HT.

At the risk of sounding like a Dinosaur I`m coming to realise I actually find the Porro view more to my taste and more relaxing for all day use.

Torview,

Perhaps you are in the wrong thread?

Isn't this thread about the environmental dangers of throwing a stick at a Red-tailed Hawk and offering up a snack of commercial cooked chicken to a bird that has been known for a couple of centuries here in America as a "Chicken Hawk?":smoke:

Bob
 
I apologise to the original poster for the sideways track of this thread but I felt I had to answer Brock´s post about the hawk.......Eddy
 
Torview,

Perhaps you are in the wrong thread?

Isn't this thread about the environmental dangers of throwing a stick at a Red-tailed Hawk and offering up a snack of commercial cooked chicken to a bird that has been known for a couple of centuries here in America as a "Chicken Hawk?":smoke:

Bob

Uncle Bob

Thanks for getting us back on track.

If you are seeking to prevent re-offending behaviour by those recidivist Red-tails the last thing you should do is ply them with fried bird-legs.

This is the same as giving burglars sets of ladders and telling them to go around the neighbourhood cleaning windows and then being surprised when they hop inside for a bit of purloining.

Conservationists eh?? ;)

Lee
 
Sadly this kind of behavior leads us to ask questions about a fellows character, and furthermore credibility of judgement, Brock being one of the Characters responsible for me using and finally registering with Birdforum, and whose post`s until now I`v always found intelligent and interesting.

But I do find this attitude towards a Native species, ie not an escapee wreaking havoc in an eco-system unadapted to it, totally baffling.
 
Sadly this kind of behavior leads us to ask questions about a fellows character, and furthermore credibility of judgement, Brock being one of the Characters responsible for me using and finally registering with Birdforum, and whose post`s until now I`v always found intelligent and interesting.

But I do find this attitude towards a Native species, ie not an escapee wreaking havoc in an eco-system unadapted to it, totally baffling.

Indeed Torview indeed.

BTW if your new avatar is the view through your bins while reposing in the bath, its time to turn off the tap.....

Lee
 
I'll try to keep this brief, telegraphic even.

I've spent more time than I care to throw a stick at on large, sprawling "land-grant" universities in America (Ohio State, Purdue, Penn State). They all have Red-tails hanging about. Why? Lots of big old trees to perch in, wide lawns for easy killing, and loads of squirrels fattened up by the students. The hawks aren't desperate; just smart. I had a colleague who practically cr***** his pants when a Red-tail dropped on an unsuspecting squirrel right in front of him. It made his day.

Of course Red-tails have made Manhattan their home as well, upper east side, nesting on Woody Allen's building no less. Big hit with the birders. Book and movie followed. "Red-tails in Love." Central Park is a veritable smorgasbord, although the rest of the city poses problems.

Couple months ago I watched a Red-tail sitting on a branch above the main drag in State College (Brock's town). The hawk and I were both just hanging out, watching the hubbub of students, traffic, and in my case all those crazy, cobbled together vintage bicycles they love so much in that town. "Steel is real," as they say, and I agree. Cool stuff.

Anyway, the hawk was probably sated on squirrel meat. I was waiting on my wife, who had business at the university. The hawk and I just sat there, nothing to do. The hawk finally got bored and flew off. And then, late as usual, my wife showed up.

So much for the "struggle for survival."

I've seen birds struggle of course. I've watched a fledgling Grackle die because its parents were focused on the other siblings. I did not intervene. I watched it all afternoon and then I saw it die.

I have held a number of birds in my hands as they died, either because they hit my windows or because I saw them get smacked by cars while I was out bicycling. Hold them tight, because at the very end they put up a real fight. One Cedar Waxwing I will never forget. The final effort is to fly.

I once brought a brilliant male Kestral home, recently deceased, hit by a car, in the back pocket of my cycling jersey, just so I could show him to my wife. We both marvelled at the beauty, and then we buried him in the garden. Later that year we had a bumper crop of tomatoes.

It's called life. Not always pretty, not always clean. But it works.

I understand Brock's frustration. His town is a nasty sprawl at this point. I don't like to see it and I live 30 miles away. But as for the hawks, the best you can do is let them get by, same as you.

If you don't like Cooper's Hawks taking your favorites all winter, take down your feeders. It's pointless to start throwing sticks. I've watched a Cooper's Hawk eat a Mourning Dove, start to finish. It takes a lot of work, close to an hour. Nobody has it easy.

Someone hereabouts quotes Gerard Manley Hopkins in their signature. Hopkins is one of my favorites:

"What would the world be, once bereft
Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left,
O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

Mark
 
Last edited:
I'll try to keep this brief, telegraphic even.

I've spent more time than I care to throw a stick at on large, sprawling "land-grant" universities in America (Ohio State, Purdue, Penn State). They all have Red-tails hanging about. Why? Lots of big old trees to perch in, wide lawns for easy killing, and loads of squirrels fattened up by the students. The hawks aren't desperate; just smart. I had a colleague who practically cr***** his pants when a Red-tail dropped on an unsuspecting squirrel right in front of him. It made his day.

Of course Red-tails have made Manhattan their home as well, upper east side, nesting on Woody Allen's building no less. Big hit with the birders. Book and movie followed. "Red-tails in Love." Central Park is a veritable smorgasbord, although the rest of the city poses problems.

Couple months ago I watched a Red-tail sitting on a branch above the main drag in State College (Brock's town). The hawk and I were both just hanging out, watching the hubbub of students, traffic, and in my case all those crazy, cobbled together vintage bicycles they love so much in that town. "Steel is real," as they say, and I agree. Cool stuff.

Anyway, the hawk was probably sated on squirrel meat. I was waiting on my wife, who had business at the university. The hawk and I just sat there, nothing to do. The hawk finally got bored and flew off. And then, late as usual, my wife showed up.

So much for the "struggle for survival."

I've seen birds struggle of course. I've watched a fledgling Grackle die because its parents were focused on the other siblings. I did not intervene. I watched it all afternoon and then I saw it die.

I have held a number of birds in my hands as they died, either because they hit my windows or because I saw them get smacked by cars while I was out bicycling. Hold them tight, because at the very end they put up a real fight. One Cedar Waxwing I will never forget. The final effort is to fly.

I once brought a brilliant male Kestral home, recently deceased, hit by a car, in the back pocket of my cycling jersey, just so I could show him to my wife. We both marvelled at the beauty, and then we buried him in the garden. Later that year we had a bumper crop of tomatoes.

It's called life. Not always pretty, not always clean. But it works.

I understand Brock's frustration. His town is a nasty sprawl at this point. I don't like to see it and I live 30 miles away. But as for the hawks, the best you can do is let them get by, same as you.

If you don't like Cooper's Hawks taking your favorites all winter, take down your feeders. It's pointless to start throwing sticks. I've watched a Cooper's Hawk eat a Mourning Dove, start to finish. It takes a lot of work, close to an hour. Nobody has it easy.

Someone hereabouts quotes Gerard Manley Hopkins in their signature. Hopkins is one of my favorites:

"What would the world be, once bereft
Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left,
O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

Mark

Mark

You little Bu-gg-r.

You just said it better than the rest of us.

And the Manley Hopkins quote is just so beautiful it has me all chokey.

Well done.

Lee
 
Quite often numbers are limited by the availability of food. So come Winter, many if not most of the little birds will die. So, you can allow a Hawk to have a nice snack, and help it through the Winter, or allow the little bird to starve as it competes with its fellows for a limited food supply.

Anyway, the Hawk eats the Magpie. The Magpie eats the sparrow chick. The sparrow eats the slug. So really you should kill the Hawk, to save the Magpie, kill the Magpie to save the Sparrow, and kill the Sparrow to save the slug. Simples. Nuke the lot I say. It's for their own good.

Alternatively you work to prevent habitat loss, to further wildlife friendly farming and so on, and stop anthropomorphising.

More worrying is the UK proposals to allow developers to 'buy' wildlife reserves.
 
Mark: your words "brief" and "telegraphic" in that post are interesting. So, we are all more inspired by Brock than we think.

Generally: removing the apex predator will have repercussions down and up the prey pyramid. These are somewhat complex and one can get an idea of the overall situation in the fairly long term only by experience or with approximate data and computer modelling.

I think it is very unlikely, however, that the effect will be serious.

But above all, in an evirmt. such as this there are the anthropocentric priorties. In heavily built-up surroundings do you prefer to see and hear the hawk and its gruesome doings, or the smaller cute beings and their quiet ways, to represent Nature? Only Brock and his neighbours can decide.

Whew, what a h* of an effort to keep RB away a little longer.

Horukuru: a few months ago someone posted a fairly detailed direct comparison of the 8.5x SV and 8 or 10x HT, maybe Eddy, as I seem to remember it was in Spain.
 
Mark: your words "brief" and "telegraphic" in that post are interesting. So, we are all more inspired by Brock than we think.

Generally: removing the apex predator will have repercussions down and up the prey pyramid. These are somewhat complex and one can get an idea of the overall situation in the fairly long term only by experience or with approximate data and computer modelling.

I think it is very unlikely, however, that the effect will be serious.

But above all, in an evirmt. such as this there are the anthropocentric priorties. In heavily built-up surroundings do you prefer to see and hear the hawk and its gruesome doings, or the smaller cute beings and their quiet ways, to represent Nature? Only Brock and his neighbours can decide.

Whew, what a h* of an effort to keep RB away a little longer.

Horukuru: a few months ago someone posted a fairly detailed direct comparison of the 8.5x SV and 8 or 10x HT, maybe Eddy, as I seem to remember it was in Spain.

Yeah, I got a little carried away there. Not sure about the "smaller cute beings" though. Many critters have their nasty side. I once saw a Jay and a Robin fighting over a baby bird. I assumed it was a Robin chick and the Jay was trying to eat it. Guess what? It was a Jay chick and the Robin was trying to kill it. Not sure if a Robin would eat a baby bird, though. I confess I broke up the scuffle.

Mark
 
Yeah, I got a little carried away there. Not sure about the "smaller cute beings" though. Many critters have their nasty side. I once saw a Jay and a Robin fighting over a baby bird. I assumed it was a Robin chick and the Jay was trying to eat it. Guess what? It was a Jay chick and the Robin was trying to kill it. Not sure if a Robin would eat a baby bird, though. I confess I broke up the scuffle.

Mark

Mark

I agree with you about the "smaller cute things' like the squirrel Brock tried to save from the hawk. I lost a whole nest of fledgling Robins to a gray squirrel last spring and I have seen gray squirrels killing and eating other baby squirrels.

Nature is nature....often beautiful....sometimes seemingly cruel.....but always interesting to watch.

Steve
 
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