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Peregrine or Barbary - October, Jordan (1 Viewer)

L

Lathers

Lathers
Seen at Aqaba, Jordan in October, I'm struggling to pin this down as it appears to show charactistics of Peregrine Falcon (f. peregrinus, especially f.p.brookei), and Barbary Falcon (f. (peregrinus) pelegrinoides). Of couse a hybrid is also on the cards.
Any thoughts please folks?

Feint pinky/buff on sides of face, narrow border of dark band between cheek and eye. small buffy patch on forehead over bil.
 

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state of flight feathers might indicate cativity, bluish cere might indicate hybrid with other falcons, not a typical Barbary imo
 
could perfectly be a cross ( not an hybrid as barbaries are just a peregrine subspecies among many others , feet are not blue but very pale not rare on that part of the world, if theis was an hybrid from a captive program the falcon would be ringed and shape will be quite different ( shorter fingers , longuer tail) the bird is moulting in an atypical way so could be a captive one but from wild origin
 
nebli said:
could perfectly be a cross ( not an hybrid as barbaries are just a peregrine subspecies among many others , feet are not blue but very pale not rare on that part of the world, if theis was an hybrid from a captive program the falcon would be ringed and shape will be quite different ( shorter fingers , longuer tail) the bird is moulting in an atypical way so could be a captive one but from wild origin
Click to expand...

It is the actual classification, so you are right for now, but this will change. I know very well Barbary Falcon in the field since almost 30 years, and I've seen that interactions with Peregrine is not those of a sub-species. It is a very distinct species to my opinion.

I published a little article about that in African Bird Club Bulletin in 2000 but it seems with my limited skills in English 19 years I didn't explain good enough as my publication was rarely taken in account.

As soon as some people will study in details behaviour of Barbary Falcon in the field, it will be back as a distinct species in international lists, for sure.
 
A couple of questions to Lathers, if I may:

- did you think it was a male or female?

- Apparent size and manner of flight compared to peregrine-type falcons you're familiar with at home?

- Are you familiar with falcons local to that area, and if so what do they look like (size, flight pattern, markings etc) compared to this bird?


Juan, could we borrow from your knowledge please: can you tell us about the progression of moult in migratory arctic peregrines (preferably wild ones, not falconry birds), and in particular the timing of changeover from juvenile to adult plumage?
 
Valéry Schollaert said:
It is the actual classification, so you are right for now, but this will change. I know very well Barbary Falcon in the field since almost 30 years, and I've seen that interactions with Peregrine is not those of a sub-species. It is a very distinct species to my opinion.

I published a little article about that in African Bird Club Bulletin in 2000 but it seems with my limited skills in English 19 years I didn't explain good enough as my publication was rarely taken in account.

As soon as some people will study in details behaviour of Barbary Falcon in the field, it will be back as a distinct species in international lists, for sure.
Click to expand...

Fascinating stuff Valery.

Is there anywhere I can see your work?
 
barbaries are perergine falcons as genetic studies have proved it for quite a long time whatever interesting observations you·ve done. statistically the sampling is much too small to take a conclusion in parts of their range they cross readily with them and crosses are just very difficult to tell appart
 
nebli said:
barbaries are perergine falcons as genetic studies have proved it for quite a long time whatever interesting observations you·ve done. statistically the sampling is much too small to take a conclusion in parts of their range they cross readily with them and crosses are just very difficult to tell appart
Click to expand...

Genetic studies cannot prove anything, just give information that we use to make better classification, that is still a concept.

Hybrids are found very locally, but the live sympatrically without interaction in most of the range. Many species are split with much wider range of intergration.

No worry, as for many examples, taxonomist will reverse and split them again within maximum 15 - 20 years. Bet ?
 
Valéry Schollaert said:
As soon as some people will study in details behaviour of Barbary Falcon in the field, it will be back as a distinct species in international lists, for sure.
Click to expand...

I would be interested to know which behavioural details observers should look out for. I normally get to see them on a couple of week-long trips each year, and have a good frame of reference (the F. p. peregrinus regularly seen here) to compare them with.
 
Patudo said:
I would be interested to know which behavioural details observers should look out for. I normally get to see them on a couple of week-long trips each year, and have a good frame of reference (the F. p. peregrinus regularly seen here) to compare them with.
Click to expand...

Hi Patudo,

Sorry for long delay, I didn't connect since long, I'm traveling in Indonesia.

Well, first point would be to understand the difference in ecological niche. I've seen Barbary F. and Peregrine F, breeding in the same gorge, and they have limited interaction. This show a separation of ecological niche at least locally, but the details are not known,

Voice is also essentiel, and according to Claude Chappuis (pers comm), it is clearly separating the two. Is one species reacting to the territorial call of the other ?
 
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