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Sparrow hawks (1 Viewer)

This thread looks like it will go on forever, why don't we all decide to agree with Anthony Morton and Suricates points of view then we can get started on another thread. THE EFFECT OF RACING PIGEONS AND HOMERS ON THE BREEDING ATTEMPTS OF THE PEREGRINE FALCON, or perhaps. THE EFFECTS OF THE BIRD BREEDERS ON OUR WILD BIRDS. Should make interesting topics.
 
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nirofo said:
This thread looks like it will go on forever, why don't we all decide to agree with Anthony Morton and Suricates points of view then we can get started on another thread. THE EFFECT OF RACING PIGEONS AND HOMERS ON THE BREEDIND ATTEMPTS OF THE PEREGRINE FALCON, or perhaps. THE EFFECTS OF THE BIRD BREEDERS ON OUR WILD BIRDS. Should make interesting topics.
Well said,
Perhaps we could move away from Sparrowhawks and discuss an equally worrying factor.
The new Government Consultation for the control of non indigenous species and the ways of combatting this serious problem.
We already hear of the cull on Ruddy Ducks, Canada Geese ect ect, but the question is being put forward about rabbits, ladybirds, not forgetting the Mink so kindly let out by the Animal Rights Fanatics.
The Ring-necked parakeet has established itself down south and Schedule 9 gives a list of many species that may not be released into the wild.
So why are we seeing the re-introduction of the Great Bustard a bird that will devastate already endangered ground nesting birds.
Plenty to discuss or are we still sniping
Suricate
 
Who wants to start a few new threads? So that we dont make this into a big,confusion of a thread about a multitude of topics:)
 
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Suricate said:
So why are we seeing the re-introduction of the Great Bustard a bird that will devastate already endangered ground nesting birds.Plenty to discuss or are we still sniping
That would be an interesting topic for discussion. But like seb_seb says, it would be more user-friendly to start a new thread for it.
 
Why the talk of bustards being introduced?

for the publicity of course!
the area will not hold a serious population........absolutely crazy idea. The money would go much further to help alleviate problems in Asia and South America for example and benefit many more species. Country loyalties etc. and the desire to see bustards on your uk list don't come into it.

while were on the subject shoot the Ruddy Ducks.....I've seen White-headed Ducks in Turkey and Spain and would like others to have the chance too........
 
seb_seb said:
a cull of ladybirds and rabbits?
im *confused*
The Consultation will give the chance to cover ALL non Indigenous species even the Little Owl.
But the damage the Zander, crayfish, grey squirrell and of course the Mink have done it is not suprising that action needs to be taken.
Suricate
 
Tim Allwood said:
Why the talk of bustards being introduced?

for the publicity of course!
the area will not hold a serious population........absolutely crazy idea. The money would go much further to help alleviate problems in Asia and South America for example and benefit many more species. Country loyalties etc. and the desire to see bustards on your uk list don't come into it.

while were on the subject shoot the Ruddy Ducks.....I've seen White-headed Ducks in Turkey and Spain and would like others to have the chance too........
As you probably Know the Ruddy Duck was introduced here in the 1940`s and has not caused any problem to date.
The call for a cull actually came from Spain where they stated their concerns of the reduced numbers of White-headed Ducks and the hybrid problems being caused by the Ruddy duck.
The problem could very easilly be resolved without any UK cull if the Spanish stopped slaughtering them along with millions of other birds, the mass killing of birds is not only linked with Cyprus and Malta it`s a bit nearer home aswell.
Fatal Flight a very good book that although not totally factual gives a very bleak picture and Kestrel head keyrings are fashionable.
A good friend Max Furrugia Chaiman IAR Malta works tirelessly and under threat to stop this slaughter.
So I see no need to cull for no reason.
Suricate
 
I can`t believe that Wednesday is beginning in the same way as Tuesday: Having to come onto this forum to argue against the culling of one species for the (perceived) benefit of another….Yesterday it was Sparrowhawks and passerines today it is Ruddy Ducks and White-headed Ducks.

I am utterly opposed to the Ruddy Duck cull on every level possible. Quite what it is supposed to achieve is a complete blank to me.

I shall start a new thread entitled Ruddy Duck Cull Right or Wrong and we can discuss it there to keep it separate from the Raptor discussion on this thread.

The link to that thread is:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=111401#post111401
 
Suricate said:
The problem could very easilly be resolved without any UK cull if the Spanish stopped slaughtering them along with millions of other birds, the mass killing of birds is not only linked with Cyprus and Malta it`s a bit nearer home aswell.
Fatal Flight a very good book that although not totally factual gives a very bleak picture and Kestrel head keyrings are fashionable.
A good friend Max Furrugia Chaiman IAR Malta works tirelessly and under threat to stop this slaughter.
So I see no need to cull for no reason.
Suricate
Suricate your statement regarding mass slaughter of birds in Spain is frankly wrong. Over the last few years Birding, Conservation & Enviromental issues have taken off in Spain. I accept that there are still problems - the handling of the Galician coastal oil-spill, the toxic waste spill in outer Donana a few years ago & the problems of Wind turbines near migration roots in Andalucia all spring quickly to mind. However Spain has a number of exciting enviromental policies on the go. It holds the greatest density of Great & Little Bustard in the world, raptors continue to flourish with increasing populations of Black(Monk) & Griffon vultures as well as rising populations of Lammergeier. Storks, herons, etc are on the increase as are globally endangered White-headed duck & Marbled Teal. Spain has a lot of hunters but indiscriminate hunting of raptors & non-game species is rare & indeed many hunting syndicates comprising ordinary people have supported raptor, rare bird & Lynx conservation programmes. Come on credit where credit is due -Spain & it's hunters have behaved far more responsibly than those of the UK, France or Germany. In the UK & particularly in Scotland our record with raptors should have us hanging our heads in shame. So come on -lets hear it for Spanish conservation which has offered so much for the UK birder. They should receive our support & gratitude & not mindless critiscism! :clap:
 
Jasonbirder said:
Unfortunately for fanciers the level of predation they suffered from Sparrowhawks and Peregrines during the 70`s and 80`s was artificially low because of the population crashes these Raptors suffered. As the population of these birds have recovered, then consequently so will the level of predation they suffer - what is needed is for fanciers to accept that the level of losses they suffer now or in the future as the population stabilises at a more natural level is the acceptable level of loss and not hanker for the "good `ol days" when raptors such as these were practically extinct in many areas.


Hi Jasonbirder,

Guess what? We share the same birthday - but that seems to be about all at the moment. For while you're still young enough to have candles on your cake, I have a 60 watt light bulb AND some candles as well!

What you have clearly misunderstood is that the 'acceptable' level of predation by Sparrowhawks on racing pigeons I referred to was BEFORE the problems brought about by DDT. In other words, even though the Sparrowhawk population had been stable for years it was a rare event indeed and a talking point for days among fanciers if a racing pigeon was killed by one.

Could it just be that this was due to the fact that the UK's songbird population at that time was at a level that people of your age can sadly only read about? So in effect the Sparrowhawk wasn't forced to supplement its diet by killing racing pigeons, because there was a much healthier population of its natural quarry - songbirds. I'm not being rude, but the dawn chorus is yet another experience which you can only dream about!

Let's move on to the 'Pesticide Plague' era and the crash of the Sparrowhawk population, along with that of many songbird species too, don't forget, a point which is often conveniently forgotten in the rush to defend raptors these days. Because the predation level at the time was already very low, this had no noticeable effect on the numbers of racing pigeons being killed. So it was 'business as usual' for fanciers.

Now we come to the present day. Sparrowhawk numbers have risen and songbird numbers have declined and still declining - despite the best efforts of the Government and the self-appointed multi-million pound charities dedicated to birds. Therefore in order to supplement its diminishing prey, the Sparrowhawk has diversified and is now 'mugging' an ever-increasing number of racing pigeons, which simply did not happen when songbirds were plentiful as I have explained.

Set against this, Sparrowhawk numbers used to be controlled by gamekeepers, which is now illegal, and they have few natural enemies apart from Goshawks and Pine Martens. Consequently their population is set to rise unchecked, which makes a total nonsense of the much vaunted statement that the availability of prey controls the number of predators.

The number of pigeon fanciers in Britain is declining due to the costs involved, but in many cases also as a direct result of predation, particuarly by Sparrowhawks. Any reduction in racing pigeon numbers is sure to put even more strain on songbird numbers which, in turn, means they will not be able to make good their losses and could disappear altogether.

We do NOT have an infinite and inexhaustable supply of birds in the UK as some of you seem to think. So if you want future generations to enjoy birds as much as you do, then something must be done about it now - before it is too late!

Anthony
 
Jasonbirder said:
I can`t believe that Wednesday is beginning in the same way as Tuesday: Having to come onto this forum to argue against the culling of one species for the (perceived) benefit of another….Yesterday it was Sparrowhawks and passerines today it is Ruddy Ducks and White-headed Ducks.

I am utterly opposed to the Ruddy Duck cull on every level possible. Quite what it is supposed to achieve is a complete blank to me.

I shall start a new thread entitled Ruddy Duck Cull Right or Wrong and we can discuss it there to keep it separate from the Raptor discussion on this thread.

The link to that thread is:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=111401#post111401

Good idea, Jason, but who suggested culling sparrowhawks? I didn't!

Another smoke-screen perhaps?

Anthony
 
You suggested allowing "troublesome" individual birds or pairs to be "controlled" - how does that in anyway doffer from a cull?
 
Anthony Morton said:
Hi Jasonbirder,

Guess what? We share the same birthday - but that seems to be about all at the moment. For while you're still young enough to have candles on your cake, I have a 60 watt light bulb AND some candles as well!

What you have clearly misunderstood is that the 'acceptable' level of predation by Sparrowhawks on racing pigeons I referred to was BEFORE the problems brought about by DDT. In other words, even though the Sparrowhawk population had been stable for years it was a rare event indeed and a talking point for days among fanciers if a racing pigeon was killed by one.

***At that point the Sparrowhawk population may have been stable in some areas; but it was still recovering, and indeed being 'controlled' by the gamekeepers (that you neglect to mention until it suits you), over much of the UK.***

Could it just be that this was due to the fact that the UK's songbird population at that time was at a level that people of your age can sadly only read about? So in effect the Sparrowhawk wasn't forced to supplement its diet by killing racing pigeons, because there was a much healthier population of its natural quarry - songbirds. I'm not being rude, but the dawn chorus is yet another experience which you can only dream about!

***If the songbirds still had the quality of habitat now, their population would be at a similar level. Once you remove their food supply, cover and nesting sites; they must decline.***

Let's move on to the 'Pesticide Plague' era and the crash of the Sparrowhawk population, along with that of many songbird species too, don't forget, a point which is often conveniently forgotten in the rush to defend raptors these days. Because the predation level at the time was already very low, this had no noticeable effect on the numbers of racing pigeons being killed. So it was 'business as usual' for fanciers.

Now we come to the present day. Sparrowhawk numbers have risen and songbird numbers have declined and still declining - despite the best efforts of the Government and the self-appointed multi-million pound charities dedicated to birds. Therefore in order to supplement its diminishing prey, the Sparrowhawk has diversified and is now 'mugging' an ever-increasing number of racing pigeons, which simply did not happen when songbirds were plentiful as I have explained.

Set against this, Sparrowhawk numbers used to be controlled by gamekeepers, which is now illegal, and they have few natural enemies apart from Goshawks and Pine Martens. Consequently their population is set to rise unchecked, which makes a total nonsense of the much vaunted statement that the availability of prey controls the number of predators.

***You (of course) omitted the Tawny Owl in your chosen list of predators of the Sparrowhawk.***

The number of pigeon fanciers in Britain is declining due to the costs involved, but in many cases also as a direct result of predation, particuarly by Sparrowhawks. Any reduction in racing pigeon numbers is sure to put even more strain on songbird numbers which, in turn, means they will not be able to make good their losses and could disappear altogether.

***In this scenario the Sparrowhawk would also disappear altogether - no food - no survive.***

We do NOT have an infinite and inexhaustable supply of birds in the UK as some of you seem to think. So if you want future generations to enjoy birds as much as you do, then something must be done about it now - before it is too late!

***No insects - no songbirds.***

Anthony

Andy.
 
Steve G said:
Suricate your statement regarding mass slaughter of birds in Spain is frankly wrong. Over the last few years Birding, Conservation & Enviromental issues have taken off in Spain.
Steve G said:
Yet they STILL kill bulls for fun. Old habits die hard I'm afraid!

Spain has a lot of hunters but indiscriminate hunting of raptors & non-game species is rare & indeed many hunting syndicates comprising ordinary people have supported raptor, rare bird & Lynx conservation programmes.

It's downright illegal to kill raptors in the UK!

So come on - lets hear it for Spanish conservation which has offered so much for the UK birder.

Sounds as though you are perhaps planning to become an ex-pat yourself.

Anthony
 
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Jasonbirder said:
You suggested allowing "troublesome" individual birds or pairs to be "controlled" - how does that in anyway doffer from a cull?

You are splitting hairs AGAIN! Having the right to remove the odd troublesome (rogue) bird does NOT constitute a cull of every single Sparrowhawk, does it?

Anyway, it's illegal at present as you should know and would require an amendment to the law first. And even IF the law was changed, it would still be down to the individual - and I suspect that many would choose not to take that option anyway.

Any control on a national or regional basis could be achieved over a period of years by placing dummy eggs in nests. That way nothing has to die - simple!

Anthony
 
Anthony Morton said:
Yet they STILL kill bulls for fun. Old habits die hard I'm afraid!

Spain has a lot of hunters but indiscriminate hunting of raptors & non-game species is rare & indeed many hunting syndicates comprising ordinary people have supported raptor, rare bird & Lynx conservation programmes.

It's downright illegal to kill raptors in the UK!

So come on - lets hear it for Spanish conservation which has offered so much for the UK birder.

Sounds as though you are perhaps planning to become an ex-pat yourself.

Anthony
Try to subdue your xenophobia for a second & look at the facts. Birds are shot over here for fun too. Its illegal to hunt raptors in Spain -seems they adhere to this better than the green welly brigade over here-where old habits are dying hard but Hen Harriers are dyin' easy!
I get angry at Spain being mentioned in the same context as Malta -it's nowhere near the same. The Spanish conservation movement is fairly young but is gaining momentum & should get our support.
As for Bull-fights well I can't deny that doesn't go on & I don't support it but neither am I keen on Badger-baiting of Fox-hunting.
As for the Ex-pat dig-well I could do a lot worse than retire to Spain-its a great place & the people are wonderful, especially away from the Tourist areas but as you are undoubtedly aware Scotland is God's chosen land.
 
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