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Sony RX10 1V the new boy.

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Old Tuesday 2nd January 2018, 11:28   #51
Steve Gantlett
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Thanks indeed pbjosh and ditto SB. I'm mainly hoping that it really will focus on a moving small bird in a bush 30 yards away nearly as well as the 7Dii + 100-400ii.
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Old Friday 5th January 2018, 22:39   #52
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Stephen Ingraham, who does a fair share of bird photography, posted his review of the Sony RX10 IV. He had previously been using the RX10 III and says the new model is better yet.

http://psnp.lightshedder.com/?p=1379
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Old Saturday 6th January 2018, 11:31   #53
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Thank you BruceH. Well, that is another enthusiastic review, with a good wildlife and birds-in-flight perspective too. It's almost enough for me to take the plunge, but he is coming at it from a lower spec Bridge camera perspective and not from the Canon 7Dii + 100-400ii perspective, which is the comparison I'd really like to hear about.
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Old Saturday 6th January 2018, 13:14   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceH View Post
Stephen Ingraham, who does a fair share of bird photography, posted his review of the Sony RX10 IV. He had previously been using the RX10 III and says the new model is better yet.

http://psnp.lightshedder.com/?p=1379
The eastern bluebird shot.........i certainly would'nt say that is amazing feather detail and the double outline on the branches is'nt great either.It's good but for most it's still a choice between weight and image quality......you still can't have both,even with this latest offering.
I still believe that when technology allows,the all in one camera will be the future.......this is'nt it compared to an slr if image quality is a top priority.

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Old Saturday 6th January 2018, 16:17   #55
Steve Gantlett
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The eastern bluebird shot.........i certainly would'nt say that is amazing feather detail and the double outline on the branches is'nt great either.It's good but for most it's still a choice between weight and image quality......you still can't have both,even with this latest offering.
I still believe that when technology allows,the all in one camera will be the future.......this is'nt it compared to an slr if image quality is a top priority.
Well, that partly depends on how much has been lost from the raw in turning it into the reduced size web jpeg that we see in the blog, of course. I'm hoping that the original raw shows more detail at full size. Maybe I'm hoping for too much, but I'm still hoping....
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Old Saturday 6th January 2018, 17:45   #56
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I was excited when i looked at the spec but looking at reviews they show decent results for BIF, looking at users images on flickr most i have found are none too good.
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Old Saturday 6th January 2018, 21:13   #57
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Agree the sample shots on that page don't inspire in terms of absolute quality, but I'm not trying to sell photos or win awards with this camera (or a 7DII). I want to see how it does in terrible light for record shots and how it does for AF on seabirds against a choppy ocean.
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Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 09:05   #58
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Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
Agree the sample shots on that page don't inspire in terms of absolute quality, but I'm not trying to sell photos or win awards with this camera (or a 7DII). I want to see how it does in terrible light for record shots and how it does for AF on seabirds against a choppy ocean.
Why spend all that money on a camera that you only need for "record" shots......just curious.My panasonic fz200 was great for a bridge camera with a constant f2.8 aperture throughout its entire zoom range,fast af good enough for birds in flight and more than good enough for "record " shots.Just saying that there are some decent cameras out there that would fulfill your needs without spending ridiculous amounts of money.I'm bemused.
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Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 13:43   #59
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It is not as good as an SLR because of its smaller sensor but the Sony has 4 times the sensor size of the Panasonic. Personally I'm after more than record shots but I am willing to have a small reduction in image quality for a much smaller and lighter setup as long as it is as 'useable' as a SLR. I haven't tried the Panasonic - and I have heard it's very good - but I know my Canon HS50 drives me nuts in all but optimum conditions. I probably will keep my SLR - for a while at least - but as someone who considers themselves a birder/naturalist first and a wildlife photographer second really am getting to the point where I'm sick to death of carrying it but I do still want to be able to take good photos.
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Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 16:07   #60
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Why spend all that money on a camera that you only need for "record" shots......just curious.My panasonic fz200 was great for a bridge camera with a constant f2.8 aperture throughout its entire zoom range,fast af good enough for birds in flight and more than good enough for "record " shots.Just saying that there are some decent cameras out there that would fulfill your needs without spending ridiculous amounts of money.I'm bemused.
I've seen and played with the FZ200 and FZ1000. In optimal conditions they can take pretty good photos but they have much smaller sensors and much more primitive autofocus. Certainly they are better than the next rung down of bridge cameras but there's nothing about them that made me think that, functionally, they were anywhere near a 7D2. The RX10IV purportedly is the first bridge camera to close that gap. Sure, it seems a bit expensive but it should have image quality a large step up from the vast majority of bridge cameras and it purportedly competes well with a 7D2 on autofocus performance and I am guessing that the somewhat better IS might compensate for the smaller sensor in terms of getting AF to work and getting any sort of usable picture in extremely low light.

As I said, I'm not trying to sell photos, upload stuff to Facebook, or impress anyone. I am looking for a camera that is good enough to be worth carrying in rainforest for photos of rarities and little known species, but that doesn't weigh 3kg. I'm pretty confident that the Sony will be that camera, my biggest worry is not AF or image quality, but how slow electronic zoom lenses are.

If the Sony can also do as well as the Canon in getting identifiable shots of petrels then the Canon will get sold down the river as quickly as possible.

In any case, I've ordered the Sony and will report back in a week or two once I have started to play with it and have formed some rudimentary opinions.
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Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 16:10   #61
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I've seen and played with the FZ200 and FZ1000.

In any case, I've ordered the Sony and will report back in a week or two once I have started to play with it and have formed some rudimentary opinions.
I'm really looking forward to your reports.
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Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 16:21   #62
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One other comment about Sony and high end mirrorless vs Canon/Nikon is that the battle with micro AF adjustment and lens calibration is something that, to my mind, really, really holds back DSLRs to this day, and frustrates me. Even in optimal conditions with a perched bird and good light and center point autofocus, I am amazed that my 7DII cannot deliver 100% focus performance with any lens I've tried on it. Mirrorless cameras have their own issues but it seems to be trending that they are more or less catching and perhaps already overtaking SLRs on autofocus as we speak. I think it is highly probably that in 5 years mirrorless bodies will be outperforming SLRs even at the highest levels. The performance of the A7III and A9 tracking eyes and faces of subjects in motion is damned impressive.
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Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 21:26   #63
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One other comment about Sony and high end mirrorless vs Canon/Nikon is that the battle with micro AF adjustment and lens calibration is something that, to my mind, really, really holds back DSLRs to this day, and frustrates me. Even in optimal conditions with a perched bird and good light and center point autofocus, I am amazed that my 7DII cannot deliver 100% focus performance with any lens I've tried on it. Mirrorless cameras have their own issues but it seems to be trending that they are more or less catching and perhaps already overtaking SLRs on autofocus as we speak. I think it is highly probably that in 5 years mirrorless bodies will be outperforming SLRs even at the highest levels. The performance of the A7III and A9 tracking eyes and faces of subjects in motion is damned impressive.
One might hope that the in body image stabilization could also deal with any micro focus issues. No idea however whether that has been part of the design criteria.
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Old Monday 8th January 2018, 08:23   #64
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One other comment about Sony and high end mirrorless vs Canon/Nikon is that the battle with micro AF adjustment and lens calibration is something that, to my mind, really, really holds back DSLRs to this day, and frustrates me. Even in optimal conditions with a perched bird and good light and center point autofocus, I am amazed that my 7DII cannot deliver 100% focus performance with any lens I've tried on it. Mirrorless cameras have their own issues but it seems to be trending that they are more or less catching and perhaps already overtaking SLRs on autofocus as we speak. I think it is highly probably that in 5 years mirrorless bodies will be outperforming SLRs even at the highest levels. The performance of the A7III and A9 tracking eyes and faces of subjects in motion is damned impressive.
I know that this is a discussion about Sony mirrorless cameras,but what do people think about the Olympus OM-D E M1 MarkII.Several well-know photographers seem to have gone down this route and changed from DSLRs.
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Old Monday 8th January 2018, 12:06   #65
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I know that this is a discussion about Sony mirrorless cameras,but what do people think about the Olympus OM-D E M1 MarkII.Several well-know photographers seem to have gone down this route and changed from DSLRs.
Tom Lawson.
The Olympus should make a great birding camera,i moved over to mirrorless but with Panasonic.
How good it would be for you depends on the type of birding you do.
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Old Monday 8th January 2018, 14:29   #66
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As I understand it, the Olympus set-up should be between the quality of DSLR (say the Canon 7Dii + 100-400ii) and the best bridge camera (this Sony RX10IV), but more expensive and notably heavier than the Sony, with no DSLR compatible big lens option (nothing to match the reach of the 7Dii and a Canon big white: 600mm or 800mm).
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Old Monday 8th January 2018, 16:39   #67
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As I understand it, the Olympus set-up should be between the quality of DSLR (say the Canon 7Dii + 100-400ii) and the best bridge camera (this Sony RX10IV), but more expensive and notably heavier than the Sony, with no DSLR compatible big lens option (nothing to match the reach of the 7Dii and a Canon big white: 600mm or 800mm).
It's not that simple, when you take crop factors into consideration and the high quality of m4/3 lenses the lack of big white primes of 600/800 becomes less important.
Most users will not buy these expensive long primes and they go with up to 400 and a 1,4 converter,m4/3 can hold its own in this area,
Never been a canon user but if ime right the 100-400 becomes a FOV on the 7D of 160-640, my Leica 100-400 on m4/3 gives a FOV of 200-800, if you then take into consideration a lot of bird photographers crop any way the larger 7D sensor starts to lose some advantages.

If a high percentage of your photography is BIF then the 7D may be a better choice but that is the only area its any where near clear cut.
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Old Monday 8th January 2018, 18:06   #68
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Thank you, nikonmike. Interesting....
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Old Monday 8th January 2018, 18:42   #69
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The Olympus with a Panasonic 100 - 400 lens is appealing but is twice the price of the Sony and, although a lot lighter than a canon with 100 - 400, it still will weigh about 400g more than the Sony and, probably more importantly, its lens won't retract.

If I were starting from scratch this would probably be the way I would go but as I'm likely to lose a lot if I sell my well-used SLR gear I'm not sure my pockets are that deep and I think carrying it and a scope would still be annoying.
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Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 07:22   #70
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The eastern bluebird shot.........i certainly would'nt say that is amazing feather detail and the double outline on the branches is'nt great either.It's good but for most it's still a choice between weight and image quality......you still can't have both,even with this latest offering.
I still believe that when technology allows,the all in one camera will be the future.......this is'nt it compared to an slr if image quality is a top priority.
I've just seen the said Eastern Bluebird shot,and to my eye the shot was taken during dull/neutral lighting conditions? I've then pulled up the image to almost twice the actual size 13", and it looks absolutely amazing! It would be good to see similar shots taken under the same lighting and proximity conditions from a DSLR.
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Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 15:27   #71
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The bluebird in his blog is posted pretty small and low res - better to see it posted in a photo gallery. I couldn't find his original in his gallery, but he posted on Dpreview about that shot where you can see a much better, higher-res version of the shot and shows very good feather detail indeed:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60458410

I've shot with the RX10IV and in decent light or up to ISo400, the 1" sensor performs very well and detail is quite good. My personal experience is with the original RX10 which has the same sensor size but much smaller lens range (24-200mm), but compared to my DSLRs, SLTs, and mirrorless cameras, I never had a complaint about the sharpness and detail the RX series can deliver...the DSLRs and mirrorless with APS-C or larger sensors will have advantages when the light gets very low, at ISOs of 800 or higher, but the RX10 does remain quite usable for ISOs to 1600 and the lens' range and aperture are quite good compared to DSLRs, which generally require massive expensive lenses to achieve F4 at 600mm.
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Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 15:52   #72
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Looking at the Panasonic/Leica 100-400 has always made me wonder how much business Canon could get out of a something like a 500/5.6 EF-S specific lens with modern image stabilization.

Keep in mind that it would be a stop slower than the 300/4 so it could be drastically smaller, it would have newer components and up to date IS. Something like that would have been very interesting to many outdoor photographers but I doubt Canon will invest in a high end EF-S telephoto and I think mirrorless and bridge cameras will have that market locked up within a couple years if I had to guess. Perhaps APS-C will soon be a thing of the past?
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Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 16:06   #73
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The link in post 52 is the one that I was referring to....12' at 600m. F4 @ ISO 320, imo the detail at twice the size says all!

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Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 18:58   #74
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I've just seen the said Eastern Bluebird shot,and to my eye the shot was taken during dull/neutral lighting conditions? I've then pulled up the image to almost twice the actual size 13", and it looks absolutely amazing! It would be good to see similar shots taken under the same lighting and proximity conditions from a DSLR.
Here's one in dull conditions at 4.4mp.
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Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 19:09   #75
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Here's one in dull conditions at 4.4mp.
Approximately....how far were you from the subject Neil, and if you can recall the ISO?

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