Pigeons adapted to Man's behaviour? (1 Viewer)

ChrisKten · Mar 16, 2012

I think the title is what I mean, but I've a feeling it isn't|=)|

I'm not sure how many this will interest, as it concerns Feral Pigeons, but I'll post it just in case.

There's lots of Feral Pigeons in my garden, and I find them easy to get close to; so it's easy to observe their behaviour. I've posted often about how smart and adaptable Pigeons are, but I've also noticed something that might be evidence of Pigeons adapting genetically (assuming that's the correct term).

I would think that various Seeds/Corn/Maize would be a natural food for Pigeons, and it would be the first food item encountered by a Pigeon that's just left the nest. So the youngsters would naturally recognise seed as food, and be capable of eating it. But this isn't the case when the young birds first turn up in my garden. Even though they see the other Pigeons eating the seeds, they either can't work out how to pick it up, or don't seem to recognise it as food. OTOH, as soon as I throw out bread they head straight for it and eat it without needing to learn from the other Pigeons who are busy eating seeds.

This happens with every young Pigeon, and the behaviour persists for days, even weeks. I considered that they might have encountered bread in the nest, but AFAIK Pigeons aren't fed bread or any whole food items, they're fed on crop milk. So it would appear that due to bread being the most common food item fed to Pigeons by Man, that they've now adapted better to eating bread than eating seeds.

So, have Pigeons changed over the years? Or am I jumping to conclusions?

A2GG · Mar 16, 2012

I think you are doing the young pigeons a disservice. Bread is not nutritious for birds; It's just a filler and by doing this you are just distracting them from finding 'real' food. Give them time to work out how to get food for themselves. They will eventually figure it out. If they have just come out of the nest then they will peck around and learn what is food and what isn't.

I am not sure at about what time the crop milk is replaced with only seeds. So, maybe the parents are still taking care of the fledglings (?). Many Passerine species will feed their fledglings until they can forage efficiently.

ChrisKten · Mar 16, 2012

Annabeth2 said:
I think you are doing the young pigeons a disservice. Bread is not nutritious for birds; It's just a filler and by doing this you are just distracting them from finding 'real' food. Give them time to work out how to get food for themselves. They will eventually figure it out. If they have just come out of the nest then they will peck around and learn what is food and what isn't.

I am not sure at about what time the crop milk is replaced with only seeds. So, maybe the parents are still taking care of the fledglings (?). Many Passerine species will feed their fledglings until they can forage efficiently.

Actually, you're doing me a disservice; the bread is Wholemeal and full of seeds|=)|

And Pigeons are different to other birds, they stay in the nest longer and are no longer cared for by the parents. Any Pigeon that you see out of a nest is totally independent.

A2GG · Mar 16, 2012

ok, I stand corrected then. I assumed it was just plain ol' white bread. White bread, especially if that is all they are getting, is not very nutritious.
I know it won't kill them, but it's a waste really.

I didn't know that about the fledgling pigeons...thanks for the info !

But, what about letting them try to figure out how to feed on their own? I doubt they will starve to death. I realize that your feeding them won't make them dependent, but they eventually will have to learn how to forage and you have very health stuff out there waiting to be discovered.

A2GG · Mar 16, 2012

p.s. It's nice that you care about your pigeons so much !

fugl · Mar 16, 2012

ChrisKten said:
Actually, you're doing me a disservice; the bread is Wholemeal and full of seeds|=)|

And Pigeons are different to other birds, they stay in the nest longer and are no longer cared for by the parents. Any Pigeon that you see out of a nest is totally independent.

Indeed, & there's no reason to think white bread is bad for birds come to that. Many of the pigeons I see in Reno appear to feed on little else & are thriving.

ChrisKten · Mar 16, 2012

Annabeth2 said:
ok, I stand corrected then. I assumed it was just plain ol' white bread. White bread, especially if that is all they are getting, is not very nutritious.
I know it won't kill them, but it's a waste really.

I didn't know that about the fledgling pigeons...thanks for the info !

But, what about letting them try to figure out how to feed on their own? I doubt they will starve to death. I realize that your feeding them won't make them dependent, but they eventually will have to learn how to forage and you have very health stuff out there waiting to be discovered.

Well they've actually already figured out how to feed on their own, as they've found my garden. I don't handle the youngsters; I don't even throw food directly towards them. But they go straight for the bread that's in the garden already, or what I throw out, and it appears an instinctive reaction; hence my reason for starting this thread.

There's actually no difference between a Sparrow finding my hanging feeders, and a Pigeon finding the bread. Well there is, but only insofar as the Sparrow has probably learned from it's parents, whereas the Pigeon hasn't.

I should probably mention that there's over 200 wild birds in my garden, and at least 60 are Feral Pigeons. Some have visited for over six years, some I only see a few times a year.

ChrisKten · Mar 16, 2012

fugl said:
Indeed, & there's no reason to think white bread is bad for birds come to that. Many of the pigeons I see in Reno appear to feed on little else & are thriving.

I agree, at least when it comes to Pigeons. Pigeons appear to be designed to thrive where other species might not. Incidentally, their favourite food is peanuts, which they'll even try to steal from Corvids (doesn't always go as planned|=)|)

ChrisKten · Mar 16, 2012

Annabeth2 said:
p.s. It's nice that you care about your pigeons so much !

I'm never sure how to explain this, but I don't "care" in the Human sense of caring. If I cared for Pigeons (or other wild birds) I'd find it impossible to watch them being eaten alive by one of the Sparrowhawks.

But I do favour Pigeons, as they get a hard time from Humans, and all they're doing is trying to survive; but that's another thread entirely|=)|

A2GG · Mar 16, 2012

fugl said:
Indeed, & there's no reason to think white bread is bad for birds come to that. Many of the pigeons I see in Reno appear to feed on little else & are thriving.

It's not bad for birds per say...but, white bread is sort of a waste. When I was taking the Cornell Bird Biology home study course I asked one of the ornithologists this question. He said it's not the worst , but it's not good to get them eating it as a large portion of their diet, as it is not nutritional in comparison to their normal natural diet. He said it's ok sometimes, but in moderation. If it is only what they are eating day to day then this is not the best diet for them. So, I stick to this as my rule with bread.

A2GG · Mar 16, 2012

ChrisKten said:
I'm never sure how to explain this, but I don't "care" in the Human sense of caring. If I cared for Pigeons (or other wild birds) I'd find it impossible to watch them being eaten alive by one of the Sparrowhawks.

But I do favour Pigeons, as they get a hard time from Humans, and all they're doing is trying to survive; but that's another thread entirely|=)|

I know what you're saying. They are not your 'pets'. I feed mourning doves and I really care about them, but I know that some will be food for a hawk and I won't be 'crushed' if it happens...I would feel something though.

I saw a Red Tailed Hawk from a distance the other day swooping low over a meadow and it appeared to have taken a bird then went up to a tree and appeared to be eating. It was distant, so I didn't get the best view, but he flew into a group of birds and I am assuming that he got one. I felt for the little bird , but I am able to look at the whole picture and consider the hawk. He has to eat to and it's a tough struggle for wild birds (all of them). All of us have an interest in birds and a love or respect of birds and nature (I would assume), but most are able to see the whole picture and it's just an acceptance of the way things are and have been for millions of years.

fugl · Mar 16, 2012

Annabeth2 said:
It's not bad for birds per say...but, white bread is sort of a waste. When I was taking the Cornell Bird Biology home study course I asked one of the ornithologists this question. He said it's not the worst , but it's not good to get them eating it as a large portion of their diet, as it is not nutritional in comparison to their normal natural diet. He said it's ok sometimes, but in moderation. If it is only what they are eating day to day then this is not the best diet for them. So, I stick to this as my rule with bread.

Pure urban myth as far as I can see. Lots of people claim that white bread & other "junk" foods are harmful to birds, but I've never seen any real evidence that this is so, at least under natural conditions where birds are free to supplement their diets with whatever "natural" foods are available. The fact is many people object to throwing out bread for pigeons not because they think it's "bad" for them but for various human reasons—they don't like the mess, they worry about hygiene, or they're just not all that fond of large numbers of tame birds underfoot.

ChrisKten · Mar 16, 2012

Annabeth2 said:
I know what you're saying. They are not your 'pets'. I feed mourning doves and I really care about them, but I know that some will be food for a hawk and I won't be 'crushed' if it happens...I would feel something though.

I saw a Red Tailed Hawk from a distance the other day swooping low over a meadow and it appeared to have taken a bird then went up to a tree and appeared to be eating. It was distant, so I didn't get the best view, but he flew into a group of birds and I am assuming that he got one. I felt for the little bird , but I am able to look at the whole picture and consider the hawk. He has to eat to and it's a tough struggle for wild birds (all of them). All of us have an interest in birds and a love or respect of birds and nature (I would assume), but most are able to see the whole picture and it's just an acceptance of the way things are and have been for millions of years.

I agree, and I feel that those that only see the "cute and fluffy" side of Nature are missing out. It all fits together; many animals need to kill to live, and it's not a choice made by them, it's how it's always been. We wouldn't have the variety of species if things were any different. There's no difference between a Thrush eating a Worm alive, and a Sparrowhawk eating a bird alive; the only difference is in how we react to it. Although I must confess that I'm a Vegetarian, so I don't even eat anything dead|=)|

And even though I've seen many kills, it's never an easy thing to watch. But I want to understand Nature more, so I need to observe it.

A2GG · Mar 16, 2012

"Pure urban myth as far as I can see."

I think I'll go with the ornitholigist's viewpoint on this one.

The professor didn't say it was 'harmful'...just not the best diet in comparison with their natural diet. I guess what he is saying as that the bird who eats more pure natural stuff is simply going to be healthier than the bird who subsists off of a largely white bread diet. It seems perfectly logical to me. That's not saying that the bread will kill them or make them ill.
Also, you are reiterating what I originally said when you say: " at least under natural conditions where birds are free to supplement their diets with whatever "natural" foods are available. "

A2GG · Mar 16, 2012

ChrisKten said:
I agree, and I feel that those that only see the "cute and fluffy" side of Nature are missing out. It all fits together; many animals need to kill to live, and it's not a choice made by them, it's how it's always been. We wouldn't have the variety of species if things were any different. There's no difference between a Thrush eating a Worm alive, and a Sparrowhawk eating a bird alive; the only difference is in how we react to it. Although I must confess that I'm a Vegetarian, so I don't even eat anything dead|=)|

And even though I've seen many kills, it's never an easy thing to watch. But I want to understand Nature more, so I need to observe it.

I still like the 'cute and fluffy' stuff, but that's just how I'm made. I love cute animals and birds, but I fully use my intellect and do understand well that nature is actually very 'cruel'. I see the beauty in nature, but also the underlying truth. I think that we learn quite a bit from watching nature about ourselves and life. It's important to accept the cold hard facts. But, I just can't help myself whenever I see a photo of a little adorable sandpiper

ChrisKten · Mar 16, 2012

Annabeth2 said:
I still like the 'cute and fluffy' stuff, but that's just how I'm made. I love cute animals and birds, but I fully use my intellect and do understand well that nature is actually very 'cruel'. I see the beauty in nature, but also the underlying truth. I think that we learn quite a bit from watching nature about ourselves and life. It's important to accept the cold hard facts. But, I just can't help myself whenever I see a photo of a little adorable sandpiper

I think it's the child in us that likes the "cute and fluffy" animals, but it's also the part of us that give us our curiousity and fascination about Nature. So we'd be lost without that part of ourselves.

(My weakness is Puppies; I find it hard not to take them home with me, probably why I've had so many Dogs|=)|)

ChrisKten · Mar 16, 2012

Oh, and anyone got anything to add on the subject of this thread? As yet again I've helped drag a thread off topic; this time it was a thread I started|=)|

dantheman · Mar 16, 2012

Since we're sidetracked on white bread -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Wing

...

A2GG · Mar 16, 2012

ChrisKten said:
I think it's the child in us that likes the "cute and fluffy" animals, but it's also the part of us that give us our curiousity and fascination about Nature. So we'd be lost without that part of ourselves.

(My weakness is Puppies; I find it hard not to take them home with me, probably why I've had so many Dogs|=)|)

oh I think I have sufficiently helped in getting us off topic...sorry about that !
I wish I could have a pet...no pets allowed in my apartment complex. but, someday...

ChrisKten · Mar 16, 2012

Annabeth2 said:
oh I think I have sufficiently helped in getting us off topic...sorry about that !
I wish I could have a pet...no pets allowed in my apartment complex. but, someday...

No need to apologise; most threads evolve into something quite different, which is pretty much how Human conversation goes|=)| As long as there's something of interest posted, it's all good, as they say.

Pigeons adapted to Man's behaviour? (1 Viewer)

It's true, I quite like Pigeons

Beth

It's true, I quite like Pigeons

Beth

Beth

Well-known member

It's true, I quite like Pigeons

It's true, I quite like Pigeons

It's true, I quite like Pigeons

Beth

Beth

Well-known member

It's true, I quite like Pigeons

Beth

Beth

It's true, I quite like Pigeons

It's true, I quite like Pigeons

Bah humbug

Beth

It's true, I quite like Pigeons

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