foresttwitcher
Virtually unknown member
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New official Checklist of the birds of Germany sparks debate (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Maffong
- Start date
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Helsinki Birder
Stealth Birder
There is a level of irony in saying "people will call birds whatever names they want" and then demand that people rigidly conform to a concept of what is tickable.
By the same logic, can't you just a. Tick what you want or b. Pick an all encompassing western pal list that suits you?
Owen
opisska
rabid twitcher
There is a level of irony in saying "people will call birds whatever names they want" and then demand that people rigidly conform to a concept of what is tickable.
By the same logic, can't you just a. Tick what you want or b. Pick an all encompassing western pal list that suits you?
Owen
There is no irony. If you wanna have a competition with other people, you need consistent rules, otherwise it's no fun at all. The logical rules are to follow local checklists for birds seen in a country, because that's where the information about which birds are established in which country should be. However this simply doesn't work if the countries in question start flip floping on their opinions. Yes, there can be a global list, but a) who is gonna maintain it and based on what data? and b) for many species it makes sense to view them differently in different places. So again, the most practical solution would be to leave it to the locals.
Meanwhile, how do people call the birds in any language has no practical impact on anyyhing (as long as there is a unique identifier for the case of confusion) besides few guys who strongly need to hear their preffered version for some reason.
Helsinki Birder
Stealth Birder
I've heard this competition line before, I've never bought into it tbh, but where that falls down would obviously be a case where you have a national committee who are blatantly incompetent. So as pointed out in another thread, an organization that doesn't even maintain that list, https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=371920&page=2
Or indeed isn't competent at the main role of it's recording system.
https://helhathnobirdies.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-irish-rare-bird-committeethe-end-of.html?m=1
So again, pick a list of species that covers the entire region and decide for yourself whether you have seen species X in those boundaries and indeed what those boundaries are.
It's not as if there is a massive number of taxonomic bodies doing this, and there's nothing to stop you counting up your list for multiples of them.
As an aside, if you found a new species for some country tomorrow, were 100% happy it was the species claimed, maybe even had photos, but said country's committee rejected it.... would you not tick it?
Owen
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Hi Jan,
Well, sounds like you're not aware of the two decades of strife and confusion caused by the equally "optional" German orthography reform. Academics messing with the German language with the attitude of infallible scientific superiority certainly strike a cultural nerve after that.
And your "do not matter" really depends on the question, "to whom"? Your competitive focus on taxonomy will probably strike the academics responsible for the document that spawned this discussion as just as irrelevant as the concerns of birders who are attached to the traditional names.
Not to say I don't understand (and share) your desire for predictability and consistency ... in fact, I believe we're very much "in the same boat" there. Ever thought about going the grass roots route and setting up an internet platform for the competitive birders to agree on consistent counting using community-selected lists?
Regards,
Henning
Well, sounds like you're not aware of the two decades of strife and confusion caused by the equally "optional" German orthography reform. Academics messing with the German language with the attitude of infallible scientific superiority certainly strike a cultural nerve after that.
And your "do not matter" really depends on the question, "to whom"? Your competitive focus on taxonomy will probably strike the academics responsible for the document that spawned this discussion as just as irrelevant as the concerns of birders who are attached to the traditional names.
Not to say I don't understand (and share) your desire for predictability and consistency ... in fact, I believe we're very much "in the same boat" there. Ever thought about going the grass roots route and setting up an internet platform for the competitive birders to agree on consistent counting using community-selected lists?
Regards,
Henning
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
So you could set up a list where you had the option of ticking Ziegenmelker, or of ticking Nachtschwalbe . . . or, if you want to boost your totals, tick both? 3
Sangahyando
Well-known member
I don't think you understand. There's ample evidence in history to show us that the written word does matter, that oral traditions can become lost very easily with cultural shifts etc. (do I really need to give a list of examples?). Standardized names written in textbooks and field guides will be inevitably memorized by new generations of scientists, bureaucrats, birders, and casual birdwatchers, and eventually supplant the real vernacular names. Add to that what Henning said about the recent history of scholarly/scientific arrogance in Germany, and you should be able to see that those are very rational concerns and not just the ramblings of the usual suspects.
Well, I'm not saying you're wrong about the list issue, but it's not the topic of the thread.
Hi,
That wouldn't really give you a competitive advantage as everyone else using the same system would get the same boost automatically
Regards,
Henning
So you could set up a list where you had the option of ticking Ziegenmelker, or of ticking Nachtschwalbe . . . or, if you want to boost your totals, tick both? 3
That wouldn't really give you a competitive advantage as everyone else using the same system would get the same boost automatically
Regards,
Henning
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Hi,
That wouldn't really give you a competitive advantage as everyone else using the same system would get the same boost automatically
Regards,
Henning
Isn't that the point?
I'm sure that most WP listers will apply IOC or Clements, I doubt than many (any) will take the ruling of any national committee, over either, especially if losing a tick?
What a national committee does or doesn't count, doesn't matter in the context of a uniform, WP list compiled by a recognised body. What you'd end up with is a national list for every country rather than a WP list. I personally use the IOC and rigidly stick to it, wherever I am, simple.
I'd like to ask Jan, if this is such an issue for you, how do you count your WP list?
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opisska
rabid twitcher
I count my WP list according to rules of the Czech competition, which are exactly as I stated above: for a bird to tick, it has to be cat. A or C in country of observation. As taxonomy, we use IOC and there is a list of species, but that still doesn't mean that every species should tick in every country. As an example, Wood Duck is on the list but does not tick in Czech Republic (where no breeding in the wild has ever documented afaik). The German list is then quite important, because it used to have a lot of C's that aren't on the Czech list - again for a good reason, if you wanna tick Parakeets in WP, you certainly need to it in a place where they actually breed, not just someone's pet on a morning flyabout ...
The opening post specifically lists birds demoted from cat. C and comments on it, how is that suddenly not the topic of the thread?
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
I see what you mean now, you mean categories rather than splits / lumps.
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
Except for those who refuse to use one or the other name on principleHi,
That wouldn't really give you a competitive advantage as everyone else using the same system would get the same boost automatically
Regards,
Henning
Like I refuse to use the renaming of Black Vulture (Mönchsgeier) with a ridiculous name that means "pale greyish-white vulture".
Farnboro John
Well-known member
'S obvious. What we need is a European Fair Ticking Association (EFTA) which would have a single list controlled by a European Unified Recording Organisation (Euro) using the European Recording Mechanism (ERM). Rarities would be reported via a hotline (EURING).
Birders from states outside the ERM on its inception say, at the end of March this year, would not be permitted to keep a WP list and would instead have a West European B***S*** Count.
Competitive listing would be under the control of the International Olympic Committee.
All listing and recording would, naturally, be in English, the only truly world-wide language.
John
Birders from states outside the ERM on its inception say, at the end of March this year, would not be permitted to keep a WP list and would instead have a West European B***S*** Count.
Competitive listing would be under the control of the International Olympic Committee.
All listing and recording would, naturally, be in English, the only truly world-wide language.
John
Hi,
"Mönchsgeier" is another one of those names with religious connotation ... wonder how long that one will remain!
Regards,
Henning
"Mönchsgeier" is another one of those names with religious connotation ... wonder how long that one will remain!
Regards,
Henning
DMW
Well-known member
'S obvious. What we need is a European Fair Ticking Association (EFTA) which would have a single list controlled by a European Unified Recording Organisation (Euro) using the European Recording Mechanism (ERM). Rarities would be reported via a hotline (EURING).
Birders from states outside the ERM on its inception say, at the end of March this year, would not be permitted to keep a WP list and would instead have a West European B***S*** Count.
Competitive listing would be under the control of the International Olympic Committee.
All listing and recording would, naturally, be in English, the only truly world-wide language.
John
I think a council for the unification of national taxonomic systems would be preferable.
DMW
Well-known member
Except for those who refuse to use one or the other name on principle
Like I refuse to use the renaming of Black Vulture (Mönchsgeier) with a ridiculous name that means "pale greyish-white vulture".
Hang-on... wasn't it you who was having a pop at me for using "Black-shouldered Kite" instead of the ridiculous "Black-winged Kite"? Hmmm...
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Which birds have been renamed for this reason?
Are the American's considering renaming Cardinals and what about Bishops?
opisska
rabid twitcher
Wait before someone learns Czech and finds that we call some birds literally "little popes"!
