The Schach Shrike ... in Latin, Swedish, Chinese and Bengal! (1 Viewer)

Does anyone know why the name schach is often claimed to be onamatopoetic?

This time we´re looking at ...

schach as in:
• Long-tailed Shrike Lanius schach LINNAEUS 1758 (here) as "Lanius Schach" (ex Osbeck 1757) a k a "Schach Shrike"

Linnaeus's only reference is "Lanius A-Scack. [detail attached] Osb. iter. 227.", which is Pehr Osbeck's Dagbok öfwer en Ostindisk resa åren 1750, 1751, 1752 : ... (from 1757, here) [in English 1771; A voyage to China and the East Indies (1771), here, p.366-379], but the original Swedish text, dated the 25th of September 1751, a day with "Klart wäder" ("Clear weather"), in China, doesn´t tell us more than:

En liten fogel, som sjungde ganska wäl, blef skuten wid risåkrarna, då han sökte sin föda af risgrynen. Denna är Lanius A-Scack (*), och har följande skapnad: ..."

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A little bird, who sang very well, was shot by the riec field, when searching for its food of the rice grain. This one is Lanius A-Scack (*), and have the following creation: ...[My translation]

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And thereafter follows only a physical description ...

Note that the English version of Osbeck's voyage didn't mention "Lanius A-Scack" at all, but instead used Linnaeus's binomial.

Noteworthy is also the fact that Osbeck in the first sentence wrote "sjungde ganska wäl"(which today would mean "sang rather well"), but in those times the Swedish word ganska was used as an enhancing word in Sweden (not as of today somewhat diminishing), meaning, more or less, that the bird in question: "sang pretty/very well"... and if it "sang fairly/pretty/very well" why would schach be onamatopoetic? It doesn´t resemble any sort of melodious song, does it? And what particular sound, of this Shrike, is meant to fit such an explanation?

To me, this far, schach looks more like a homophone, based on a local (Chinese) name.

But also note Osbeck's foot-note: "(*) The Crested Red, or Russit [sic] Butcher-bird. Edv. 54.", which is the “Crested Red or Russit Butcher-Bird” by George Edwards (1747), here (Plate on the following page, of what has to be a rather ill-drawn juvenile bird), which tells us:

This bird was sent from Bengal, to Mr. Dandridge in Moorefields, London. It is called in its native country Charah.

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In my mind Linnaeus's "Schach" looks like either a variation (and shorter version) of a Chinese "A-Scack" or a combination of that name, together with the Bengal Charah ... (S)Cha+ack ... into the (similar-sounding) "Schach". Also note the similarity in how those different names can be pronounced. Even if Linnaeus didn´t refer to it in the OD, I´m pretty sure he knew of Edwards's text, as it was mentioned/referred to by Osbeck.

Anyone think otherwise? Or maybe have an alternate theory?

Björn

PS. The sound itself (and the shrike) here. To me (at least that certain, caged chirping) doesn´t sound much like "schach".
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I'd have to say that "scack" doesn't sound remotely like anything which could be spoken in most of the Sinitic languages. Consonant clusters just don't fit, for one thing. But don't let that hold us up: maybe it's from some other language from where the voyage travelled. Do we know where Osbeck was on that day?

And: how would an 18th-century Swedish person have pronounced "A-scack"?

Paul, from what I can tell Osbeck was somewhere in the area along the coast of Canton (todays Guangzhou), in south-east China, on that certain day, 25 September 1751. Two days later, the 27th, he visited "Danska öen" (Danskön, i.e. Danish/Dane Island), which is today's Changzhou Island, in the Pearl River Delta of China's Guangdong Province.

And (without being more than a novice on Swedish 18th-century speech) I would guess that "A-Scack" would be pronounced something like: Ah-skack or Ah-schack (A´-sca´c, alt. A'-chac in an English tongue).

Remember that "A-Scack" is (in my mind) a Swedish interpretation of a name most likely heard. I doubt Osbeck ever saw it written (and even if so, it would have been in a language he couldn't read). What an original Chinese name would sound like (or look) is far beyond my understanding. Either way; compare with the Korean name (긴꼬리때까치) for this Shrike, which transliteration is written: gin-kkori-ttaekkachi. The ending does remind (at least me) slightly of "Schach".

However, this far, I´ve seen no indications that Osbeck himself coined it. Neither based on what.

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Note that Osbeck also (in the same area, on that Island, "Danska öen", 27 September) mentioned Chinese Black Crows (with white neck), Chinese (Grey and Pied) Magpies and Chinese Grashoppers by their (somewhat similar-looking) local names: "Leu-kåo" resp. "Datt-såu" and "Whom-ma".

/B

So, maybe like how a Norwegian would say "a-skjakk"? (Probably Swedes would say it like Norwegians but I haven't heard Swedes speaking much.) I suppose that could be a word from one of the languages of the south China coast (of which I have almost no knowledge) but I think the chances of finding a Cantonese-speaking ornithologist to confirm that are pretty low.

One common call of Lanius schach may very well be written as "schach". Recordings of this species in Xeno-canto seem to be restricted now, so I don't link an example. In any case the call is not that different from "territorial call" of Red-backed Shrike (and several other species of Shrike), just somewhat louder and harsher.

In any case, Osbeck may have used a word which he understood as onomatopoetic, but also he may have taken it from local language, but it is very much possible that the name is onomatopoetic there.

Does this book, Natuurlyke historie, of, Uitvoerige beschryving der dieren, planten, en mineraalen, by Houttuyn, from 1762 (in Dutch) help in any way; here pp. 219-220: "..., alwaar die A-Schack geheten wordt" ... ?

Anyone of our Dutch knowing friends feel like translating the full sentence?

Calalp said:

Anyone of our Dutch knowing friends feel like translating the full sentence?

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VI.
Schach.
(6) Klaauwier met het Lyf geel-agtig , het Voorhoofd en de Vleugelen zwart.
De Heer Osbeck heeft deezen Klaauwier, dien ik onder dit Geslagt van Brisson niet aangetekend vind, op zyne Reize in China waargenomen, alwaar die A-Schack geheten wordt.
De grootte is als der voorgaanden; de Kop en Hals zyn van boven grys; de Hals van onderen witagtig; de Rug en Buik Schulpkleurig. De Slagpennen zyn zwart; de eersten in rang wit aan den wortel, de tweeden aan de tippen.

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More or less:

"VI.
Schach.
(6) Shrike with the body yellow-ish, the forehead and the wings black.
Mr. Osbeck has observed this shrike, which I don't find noted under this genus by Brisson, during his voyage in China, where it is called A-Schack.
The size is like that of the preceding ones; the head and neck are grey above; the neck below whitish; the back and belly shell-coloured. The flight feathers are black, the first in order white at the root, the second at the tip."


This is basically a reworked translation of Linnaeus' 1758 text, with the reference to Brisson added. Linnaeus:

Schach. 6. L. corpore lutescente, fronte alisque nigris.
Lanius A-scack. Osb. iter. 227.
Habitat in China. P. Osbeck.
Magnitudo praecedentium. Caput & Collum supra griseum. Collum subtus testaceo-albidum. Dorsum & Abdomen pallide testacea. Remiges nigrae: primores basi albae; secundariae apice albicantes.

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"Schach. 6. Shrike with the body yellowish, the forehead and the wings black.
Lanius A-scack. Osbeck. Travels. 227.
Inhabits China. P. Osbeck.
With the size of the preceding ones. Head and neck grey above. Neck brick-whitish below. Back and belly brick-coloured. Flight feathers black, the primaries white at the base, the secondaries whitish at the tip."


As I understand it, the Dutch text indeed says that A-Schack is a local Chinese name. But it's not really possible to tell whether this is based on fact, or just the translator's interpretation of Linnaeus' word.

Typo in Post #1!

Linnaeus's only reference is "Lanius A-Scack. [detail attached] Osb. iter. 227.", which is Pehr Osbeck's Dagbok öfwer en Ostindisk resa åren 1750, 1751, 1752 : ... (from 1757, here) [in English 1771; A voyage to China and the East Indies (1771), here, p.366-379], but ...

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... should have been pp.366-367. My slipper fingers. My error!

Sorry for any confusion.

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Thanks, Laurent (posting my post #9 simultaneously), I had the same impression (helped by Google Translate), but needed a better translation ... :t:

My (somewhat picky or pernickety) objection is pretty simple, here based on the entry in today's HBW Alive Key:

schach
Onomatopoeic name Scack coined for the Long-tailed Shrike by Pehr Osbeck 1757 (Lanius).

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As I read it Osbeck never called this bird simply "Scack", but "A-Scack" (left out in the English version of his Diary from the trip to China), which in my mind most likely is/was a local (maybe Cantonese?) name for this bird (that, in its turn, very well could be onamatopoetic, if so from its harsch call). If Osbeck coined it (or ever heard it!) or not ... is beyond what´s told. Osbeck only mentioned its pretty song.
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(6) Shrike with the body yellowish, the forehead and wings black.

Mr. Osbeck has seen this shrike, that I do not find noted under the genus of Brisson, on his voyage in China, where it is called A-schack. The size is as that of the previous ones; head and neck are grey above; the neck is whitish at the underside; back and belly are the colour of a shell. The remiges are black; the first ones white at the base, the secondaries at the tips.

Same book, by the same Houttuyn, in German (1773), here. Also see here, here and here (p.46) ...

Well, don´t think we´ll get much further. I´ll stick to my version.

For what it´s worth.

Björn