Scottish Crossbill status (1 Viewer)

AStevenson · Aug 16, 2006

Jane Turner said:
Caledonian Crossbill has a good non-contentious ring to it. Also echoes the habitat that needs conserving!

Redpolls are in a similar state of confusing taxonomic flux. Personally I am as clueless when faced with non classic Repolls as I am with Loxias in Scotlnad!

Sadly Caledonian doesn't work either - From my understanding of the various papers in BB and in Scottish Birds(journal of the SOC), and no doubt Griffin will correct me if I'm wrong, but Scotbills occur more often in pine plantations not old forest remants and on the basis of sonogram data occur or have occurred in plantations in the Flow Country! and in Fife, not just Deeside/Speyside.

Parrots are apparently the 'commonest' crossbill at least at times in Caledonian Pine forest, and commons can be anywhere in conifers

The press release doesn't obviously do justice to the large amounts of work that have gone on in the Highlands over the last decade or so, involving following known colour-ringed breeding birds etc. which proved assortive breeding, and charted the 'yes it is not it isn't' twists and turns of the research. Seems that many folk have been unaware of the work or the inherent difficulty of trying to ID many crossbills in the northern half of Scotland.

And Jane, don't start me on redpolls - did you manage a good squint at any of ours whilst you were on North uist recently - many are appalling - there's a PhD and more awaiting anyone who wants to work on them!

Cheers,
Andrew

Big Phil · Aug 16, 2006

griffin said:
Hey Phil,

Try this :

http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/M-Audio MicroTrack.htm

Was recommended to me but I went with the FR2 which was also recommended by the same person.

It would be good to have someone else (and others) contributing Scotbill and Parrot records to NESBR - I have just done the species accounts today and it is only my records for these species, as unfortunately I am the only one who has sonograms. That said, I think I have it covered !

Would be good for you especially as you spend time up the Derry and Luibeg on the way to the high tops !

Maybe I should set up a sonogram reading consultancy in advance of the rush of people to buy equipment to record crossbill calls :t: !!!!

Cheers Linz, I'm definately going to look into this.

Capercaillie71 · Aug 16, 2006

griffin said:
Other option is a flash recorder but these start at ca. £300.

Can't you get some sort of adapter to record from a mic onto an ipod or similar, if you already have one?

griffin · Aug 16, 2006

Big Phil said:
Cheers Linz, I'm definately going to look into this.

Pleasure Phil. To be honest that is what is positive about this press release and information - people will get out with sound recording equipment and go get 'em. Even if they are clueless to what the sonogram "says" it is still an important record.

griffin · Aug 16, 2006

Capercaillie71 said:
Can't you get some sort of adapter to record from a mic onto an ipod or similar, if you already have one?

You can Paul. However, best to have something that can record a .wav file if possible as Mp3 can compress the recorded data and effect the sonogram - it basically "averages" certain frequencies. So the boffins say anyway.

However, I did use my first Mini Disc in Mono mode which was one of the "lossy" settings (ATRAC), and it produced fine sonograms.

Linz

griffin · Aug 16, 2006

Capercaillie71 said:
Having said that I spent over 5 hours wandering round native pinewoods today and didn't see or hear a single crossbill.

Ah, you must have been at Tanar ? !

Had total of 60 contacts (mainly Parrots, some Scots) at one site Monday past. :eek!:

Linz

Big Phil · Aug 16, 2006

griffin said:
Pleasure Phil. To be honest that is what is positive about this press release and information - people will get out with sound recording equipment and go get 'em. Even if they are clueless to what the sonogram "says" it is still an important record.

Well that brings me onto the next obvious question - how hard is it to produce and interpret the sonograms?.

griffin · Aug 16, 2006

Big Phil said:
Well that brings me onto the next obvious question - how hard is it to produce and interpret the sonograms?.

Easy to produce, can be difficult to interpret, but as I have said on another thread, no more difficult than looking for fine plumage details on a bird viewed through bins/scope.

Jane Turner · Aug 16, 2006

AStevenson said:
And Jane, don't start me on redpolls - did you manage a good squint at any of ours whilst you were on North uist recently - many are appalling - there's a PhD and more awaiting anyone who wants to work on them!

Cheers,
Andrew

Thankfully they were all in flight!

markgrubb · Aug 16, 2006

griffin said:
Easy to produce, can be difficult to interpret, but as I have said on another thread, no more difficult than looking for fine plumage details on a bird viewed through bins/scope.

So i guess the next logical question is what software/method do you use to produce a sonogram? And is there any readily available resource that the average punter can access to try and interpret the recordings.

Birdspotter · Aug 16, 2006

griffin said:
Ta Robin,

I tend to only hear the pro speciation arguments which are by respected scientists -the negative arguments do tend to be rather "journalistic" in their orientation and as such are usually misquoted, or ill informed or both. Remember the shocker in the Glasgow Herald last year by Vicky Collins - "Scottish, with its higher call" - eh, no, how about go and bloody look at some and listen to them before you write an article insulting those of us who study them. Or at least speak to someone who knows what the hell they are talking about !

That article really piss:ed me off-it is crap like this that is responsible for shaping peoples opinions and attitudes without proper and accurate presentation of the facts.

I'm afraid if you read rags like that you only have yourself to blame !
Personally I read the Edinburgh Evening News that have great snippets of information as well as well researched articles, including one on last years Torness Paddyfield Warbler with the quote from a Torness power station worker that they "think its the flat roof that helps attract all the rare birds to that particular area" :eek!:

Xenospiza · Aug 16, 2006

Very recently, a study on NA crossbills was published, that stated that the DNA of all call forms was similar, but also showed (through AFLP fragments) that the call types mated assortively. This has also been reported for European call forms (which are still being recorded quite regularly by the guy who brought us that Dutch Birding crossbill CD).

I'd say that based on the evidence, either all forms are "call types", or they're all "species"... (American types 1-9, European A-E (mayby more – e.g. I've heard very weird "redpoll-like" crossbills which I could not identify), Parrot, Scottish)... All other treatments do not seem logical to me.
Now just think of some fancy names instead of all this "type" stuff to get people in the mood for splitting! Their favourite cone could be an idea...

No matter how you look at it, these populations deserve conservation.

Birdspotter · Aug 16, 2006

Gotta say re sonagrams I have often thought about doing some of this on Xbills in Lothian, but didnt know were to start, so I find this info an excellent start.
With regards to influxes of Xbills to certain areas throughout Britain that often happens and are thus ALL put down as Commons, surely if a Pine crop fails in a Scotsbill or Parrots area they all then move.
I know that Fife and perhaps Derbyshire have had Scotsbill, please correct me about Derbyshire if wrong, so why not in Lothian or elsewhere ?

Just a thought from a tick hungry Lothian birder.

griffin · Aug 16, 2006

Xenospiza said:
Now just think of some fancy names instead of all this "type" stuff to get people in the mood for splitting! Their favourite cone could be an idea...

No matter how you look at it, these populations deserve conservation.

Aha, Magnus had mentioned something to me about "Bohemian Crossbill" or something a couple of months ago ? Not sure about it to be honest, and the "Dutch" calls are all different in nomenclature from 'ours' which is confusing. When we know more about where the come from and go via ringed re-traps then maybe we can have such exotic names, which would be more fun !

griffin · Aug 16, 2006

For anyone interested in producing Crossbill Sonograms please refer to the following :

Dutch Birding Vol.22, No.2, 2000 ( Magnus Robb ) - calls not classified as ours in UK and not verified biometrically which ours are. Great sound recordings by Magnus Robb.

"Evolutionary Differentiation in Morphology, Vocalizations, and Allozymes Among Nomadic Sibling Species in the North America Red Crossbill Complex" by Jeffery G. Groth (University of California Press). The founder of crossbill call stuff !

"Vocal Similarities between Mediterranean and North European Pine Crossbills Loxa Spp." by Ron w. Summers and David Jardine, Ardeola 52 (2), 2005, 269 278

"The distribution and habitats of crossbills Loxia spp. in Britain, with special reference to the Scottish Crossbill Loxia scotica" by Ron W. Summers, David c. Jardine, Mick Marquiss and Robert Rae, Ibis 2002, 144, 393-410. I don't know David, but personally know the others and have the highest regard for their fieldwork and research.

Hope this helps,

Linz

Acanthis · Aug 17, 2006

Crossbills

Hi Linz

Great thread!
Seems like deja vu though like I've read and took part in similar debates on birdforum a few years ago - nothing changes!

I'd like to join your sad b*st*rd network of xbill recorders. I've taken a few faltering steps down that road though spare time is limited. I recorded some distant crossbill flight calls in a local wood back in january and though I created a sonogram(poor!) using avisoft I haven't ID'd the type yet.
Can I email you a copy for your opinion?

Sandy

griffin · Aug 17, 2006

Acanthis said:
Hi Linz

Great thread!
Seems like deja vu though like I've read and took part in similar debates on birdforum a few years ago - nothing changes!

I'd like to join your sad b*st*rd network of xbill recorders. I've taken a few faltering steps down that road though spare time is limited. I recorded some distant crossbill flight calls in a local wood back in january and though I created a sonogram(poor!) using avisoft I haven't ID'd the type yet.
Can I email you a copy for your opinion?

Sandy

Please do Sandy. Looks like a "consultancy" could be lucrative ! :-O

BTW I found a copy I made of the BB article on Scotbill - I obviously forgot to send it to you. Do you still need it ? Sorry I forgot !

Linz

Acanthis · Aug 17, 2006

Xbill Consult

Linz

Took me a little while to figure out how to attach files. Here's a copy of part of the sonogram (Hopefully!)

Sandy

Farnboro John · Aug 17, 2006

griffin said:
Aha, Magnus had mentioned something to me about "Bohemian Crossbill" or something a couple of months ago ? Not sure about it to be honest, and the "Dutch" calls are all different in nomenclature from 'ours' which is confusing. When we know more about where the come from and go via ringed re-traps then maybe we can have such exotic names, which would be more fun !

And the first one recorded (literally) would mean Bohemian Rhapsody......

John

griffin · Aug 17, 2006

Acanthis said:
Linz

Took me a little while to figure out how to attach files. Here's a copy of part of the sonogram (Hopefully!)

Sandy

Hi Sandy,

Looks like a good solid signal. I use a different scale, but I would say it is a Fc1 Common Crossbill which is usually pretty abundant.

Linz

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